The Theotokos Thread

For the thinkers, theologians, philospophers.
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2308
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 300 times
Been thanked: 261 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Jocose »

Here's a thread about the Theotokos!

Stay tuned!
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2308
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 300 times
Been thanked: 261 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Jocose »

All Christians believe the Theotokos to be Ever-Virgin.

The Second Council of Constantinople A.D. 381 states:

If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten, the first before all time from the Father, non-temporal and bodiless, the other in the last days when he came down from the heavens and was incarnate by the holy, glorious, God-bearer, ever-virgin Mary, and born of her, let him be anathema.
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2726
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 372 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Del »

I miss Brigid!

With all of the wisdom of a young Orthodox babushka-in-training, she summed up everything I ever had to say about Mary in a simple statement:

"Jesus knew that we need a Mother."
User avatar
FredS
A Rotten Mexican Woman
A Rotten Mexican Woman
Posts: 1687
Joined: 08 Apr 2022, 06:05
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 465 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by FredS »

The Apostles Creed states - "I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary".

The Nicene Creed goes a step further to state He was born before all ages - "I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial (of one being) with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary"

There are, of course, other differences in these creeds - and I suppose the statement from the Second Council of Constantinople, though I haven't studied it to know for sure - but they are a good place for Christians to start. Among Christians, the virgin birth, and belief in the virgin birth, is essential. I'm sure there are mistaken believers who don't/won't get behind this most basic truth, but their beliefs are set on a flawed foundation so everything from there on is probably wrong.

So, for most of us, the BIG question is not about Mary-the-virgin-mother-of-Christ, but how do we respond to that truth.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2308
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 300 times
Been thanked: 261 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Jocose »

Marys Ever-Virginity and the early protestant reformers..
John Wesley wrote:I believe that he was made man joining the human nature with the divine in one person being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Spirit and born of the blessed virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought him forth continued a pure and unspotted vigin.
Martin Luther wrote:A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ but that she conceived Christ through Joseph and had children after that.
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2308
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 300 times
Been thanked: 261 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Jocose »

No immaculate conception.

Only Christ was born perfectly holy and sinless. The Holy virgin was like everyone else in her mortality and being subject to temptation, although she committed no personal sins through the grace of God and by exercising her free will in such a way as to conform to the divine will of God.
She was not a deified creature removed from the rest of humanity, she was not sinless by nature but by choice. Christ was sinless by nature and by choice.

*The Immaculate Conception is the belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.
First debated by medieval theologians, it proved so controversial that it did not become part of official Catholic teaching until 1854, when Pius IX gave it the status of dogma in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2726
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 372 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by Del »

Jocose wrote: 01 Dec 2022, 10:24 No immaculate conception.

Only Christ was born perfectly holy and sinless. The Holy virgin was like everyone else in her mortality and being subject to temptation, although she committed no personal sins through the grace of God and by exercising her free will in such a way as to conform to the divine will of God.
She was not a deified creature removed from the rest of humanity, she was not sinless by nature but by choice. Christ was sinless by nature and by choice.

*The Immaculate Conception is the belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.
First debated by medieval theologians, it proved so controversial that it did not become part of official Catholic teaching until 1854, when Pius IX gave it the status of dogma in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus
I am not persuaded that Mary was sinless by some purely pelagian act of will. Yet I must protest the false statement that Mary was "sinless by nature." Even angels are not sinless by nature! --that's why we have demons.

Mary was fully human, like Adam and Eve (and Christ's human nature too). It is we who are not fully human -- our nature is "fallen." It is easy for us to fall into errors, and difficult for us to do the right thing even when we know it. This is not our "natural" state as God created us; it is a diseased state that we find ourselves in.

==========================================

I am persuaded that Mary was like Adam and Eve, born into God's loving relationship -- able to know God's will clearly and unclouded by the Fall. Her intellect was not darkened nor her will weakened by the Fall, as ours is. Clear knowledge of God's will makes it easy to will whether to obey (as Mary and the angels do) or to disobey (as Adam & Eve and demons did).

The sinlessness of Mary was never disputed (until the errors of the Reformation). The Early Church Fathers (most notably, St. Augustine) were careful to carve out the exception of Mary whenever they discussed the sinfulness of all men.

It was not disputed because there was no disagreement. However, there was a lot of discussion because this was not fully understood. We had this truth, but what was God trying to show us?

[This situation of having revelation but seeking understanding was common in the early Church. We had the truth of the Trinity from the beginning, but it wasn't until Boethius in the 6th century that we developed adequate words to describe our faith. There were even considerable errors and disputes regarding the Trinity -- Arianism, Modalism, etc. Likewise, errors and disputes regarding the two natures of Christ -- Monophysitism, Nestorianism, etc. Our faith was born in the Apostles, but it has taken centuries to grow in understanding. Still not finished.]

Our faith (and language to describe it) in the Immaculate Conception was pretty well crystallized by the time of St. Bonaventure in the late 13th century. Even so, the western Church waited 400 more years before the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was elevated to a dogma.

This was all after the Great Schism, and I don't quite believe that the Orthodox dispute the actual teaching. Rather, they properly resent that they were not consulted before such a dogma was proclaimed for the Universal Church.

This is the dogmatic statement of faith:

"From the first moment of her conception, the Blessed Virgin Mary was, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of Mankind, kept free from all stain of original sin."

Thus we have a key event in the unfolding of Salvation History: After centuries of preparation and purification, God the Father prepared one unique human girl to receive this question from the angel: "Will you accept Christ as the savior for all humankind?"

And for all of us, the Theotokos accepted Christ as our Savior.
mcommini
Sunday School Teacher
Sunday School Teacher
Posts: 138
Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 15:56
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 41 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by mcommini »

I'm with Jocose on the Immaculate Conception- though it should be noted that the disagreement has more to do with our differing ideas on Original Sin. Part of what separates our churches today is that the Roman church decided to define a lot of teachings, models, and theories as dogma after the Schism- and thereby limited their usefulness in ongoing debate.

The Immaculate Conception is a requirement only if one holds to St Augustine of Hippo's model of Original Sin as the only model. We of the East do not- we have long opposed St Augustine's model, as he spoke little Greek and derived most of his theories from bad Latin translations (St Jerome's translation still being in development).

And a quick aside- we of the East also do not hold that saints were necessarily infallible in their lifetimes, so we are quite comfortable saying that St Augustine did indeed get it wrong. Such a view might be scandalous to some of our Roman brothers, so I figured I'd state that clearly now than have that revelation come out later and we all realize we've been speaking at cross-purposes. But it's not just Western saints we allow fault for, St Gregory of Nyssa had some universalist tendencies.

Basically, our view is that the effects of Adam's Fall are transmitted to his descendants, but not the guilt. We are all born with a tendency toward sin but do not have to- as the righteous lives of Sts Abel, Enoch, Elijah, and John the Baptizer and Forerunner will attest. All those men were sinless. St John is even attested as to being filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth- yet no Immaculate Conception required.

The dogma of the "undivided" Church is that Mary was sinless. The Immaculate Conception is one model that seeks to explain this- and as a model it is all quite well and good. It is when it becomes the only model that we find fault.

A similar example would be transubstantiation. We both agree that the bread and wine offered become really and truly the Body and Blood of Christ. And we both agree that transubstantiation is a good way of explaining what happens at the sacrament. Where we disagree is that transubstantiation is the official teaching of the Church as to what happens with the elements.

And it's not because we weren't invited to the table- had we been, we would have told you to leave well enough alone. These are mysteries from God we can only explain by analogy. And the usefulness of an analogy is temporal- it depends on the prevalent philosophies and cosmologies of the time, such things change often. "Mary is sinless" is the timeless teaching of the Church - how she is sinless is something we need to explain anew to each new era.
User avatar
DLJake
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 517
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 18:05
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 73 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by DLJake »

Image
Nothing destroys cowboy boots faster than mare's urine. - JimVH as published in Equine Quarterly September 2022
User avatar
DLJake
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 517
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 18:05
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 73 times

The Theotokos Thread

Post by DLJake »

Image
Nothing destroys cowboy boots faster than mare's urine. - JimVH as published in Equine Quarterly September 2022
Post Reply