SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

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tuttle
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by tuttle »

[side topic]It's been a while since we've tangled, Thunk. I love you bro. I like the way you tick. And forgive me, while I recall you had a rather wild journey from Christianity to some form of neo-Paganism, when last we left I thought you had, in some way returned to some form of Theism, at least enough to the point where you didn't claim God was purely imaginary.[/side topic]
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 You know, maybe you fellows need to learn to listen for a change. Well except for the imaginary voice in your heads that is. I never said, we shouldn’t ever listen to voices of the past. I said, paraphrased, that we may disregard some of those voices when what they said is complete garbage.
Which brings us back to the question: By what standard do you disregard some voices as garbage? If our standards evolve, then how can we be sure that our disregarding of garbage voices isn't itself just another voice destined for the garbage?
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 I don’t believe in a Holy Judge who would support the hanging of witches just because they’re witches or merely accused of being one, the destruction of Catholics or even those who would falsely accuse OC Republicans for being gay when they aren’t. So go ahead and call to criminally charge women for “murdering their babies” after they get dumped by their horny boyfriends or worse, raped. Go ahead there fellows, pretend you’re better than I. I don’t celebrate abortion. I hope for a world with happy and hopeful people. A world were abortions are rare and the desire for abortion is rarer. A society that cares deeply for everyone and tries to make sure we all have enough to live a good life, even witches and gays.

You fellows seem to defend hateful men and want to further their bigotry in the name of God. The same sort of evil we see coming from Russia today. A war in which an evil zealot bishop and his wannabe emperor wage a bloody war against what they say is a decedent and liberal west. Just nasty little men they are. Like I said, I don’t know your Holy Judge or Putin’s/Kirill’s. You all prop up the past, especially the wrong parts.
By what standard do you believe rape to be wrong?
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by FredS »

Some of our fellows don't understand governance in the good old U S of A. They'd have us believe this is a Christian nation. It isn't. It was - for the most part - been founded by Christians and it's early citizens were - for the most part - Christians. At least that's how they would have self-identified if pressed, while ignoring slavery, women's rights, and the lawlessness of the frontier. So the Constitution and early laws were certainly written from a Christian frame of mind because they were mostly written by Christians. Unless you have some supernatural revelation that the country was founded by God Himself, you understand the citizens were Christians, not the country. As fewer and fewer citizens are Christian now, one should expect them to change laws according to their present mindsets.

The laws of this country are written by men, and are seemingly now fully disconnected from God. It'd be nice if we were a Christian nation but we're not. In fact, no nation ever has been so. So, while we may know killing an unborn child is against God's law (I certainly do), it is not against man's law, at least according to our court of men who decide such things. I understand we (Christians) are called to follow God's laws and we will stand in judgement some day. The larger question, for me, is whether my voting for pro-life legislators will be enough in His eyes? Will supporting pro-life organizations be enough? Will supporting the adoption of unwanted children be enough? Will supporting unwed mothers so they can carry their babies to full term be enough? Can we follow God's law, respect mans law (and certainly never murdering anyone born or unborn), aid everyone who needs aid, and pray our collective hearts are turned?

Or burn the whole fucking thing down?
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by DLJake »

FWIW - I've advocated return to the states for a long while, same as in other than Traditional Marriage items.
[ this section is under review ]
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by Thunktank »

tuttle wrote: 11 May 2022, 12:32 [side topic]It's been a while since we've tangled, Thunk. I love you bro. I like the way you tick. And forgive me, while I recall you had a rather wild journey from Christianity to some form of neo-Paganism, when last we left I thought you had, in some way returned to some form of Theism, at least enough to the point where you didn't claim God was purely imaginary.[/side topic]
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 You know, maybe you fellows need to learn to listen for a change. Well except for the imaginary voice in your heads that is. I never said, we shouldn’t ever listen to voices of the past. I said, paraphrased, that we may disregard some of those voices when what they said is complete garbage.
Which brings us back to the question: By what standard do you disregard some voices as garbage? If our standards evolve, then how can we be sure that our disregarding of garbage voices isn't itself just another voice destined for the garbage?
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 I don’t believe in a Holy Judge who would support the hanging of witches just because they’re witches or merely accused of being one, the destruction of Catholics or even those who would falsely accuse OC Republicans for being gay when they aren’t. So go ahead and call to criminally charge women for “murdering their babies” after they get dumped by their horny boyfriends or worse, raped. Go ahead there fellows, pretend you’re better than I. I don’t celebrate abortion. I hope for a world with happy and hopeful people. A world were abortions are rare and the desire for abortion is rarer. A society that cares deeply for everyone and tries to make sure we all have enough to live a good life, even witches and gays.

You fellows seem to defend hateful men and want to further their bigotry in the name of God. The same sort of evil we see coming from Russia today. A war in which an evil zealot bishop and his wannabe emperor wage a bloody war against what they say is a decedent and liberal west. Just nasty little men they are. Like I said, I don’t know your Holy Judge or Putin’s/Kirill’s. You all prop up the past, especially the wrong parts.
By what standard do you believe rape to be wrong?
To be clear, I was never a Neo pagan. I do however find inspiration in ancient myths, including the Christian ones. Along with music, movies, philosophy and just being out on a mountain top or wading in the surf near my home. I love to learn about ancient technology and prehistoric technology. It’s part of the reason I also enjoy archery and practice almost daily.

But I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that I actually professed (seriously) as being neo pagan. I do remember I accidentally posted something that was meant to be a PM to Rusty as he and I were discussing Nordic myths. We talked about stuff like then in those days as we compared the view of myths between CPS Christians and ancient heathen myths of Europe. There’s not much of interest in much of “neo paganism” to me personally. Especially in it’s popular Wicca forms. I have tended to be far more interested in the work of certain “reconstructionist” heathenism and other linguistic scholarship from those sources. Dr. Jackson Crawford for example has quite a bit of good scholarship readily accessible to most layman like myself. He isn’t a heathen either, but enjoys the topic.

Regardless, there is a resurgence of sorts in a type of pagan/heathen world view and it’s not necessarily one based on traditional beliefs about deity. A different sort of “spirituality” is rising. It’s much more earthy and therapeutic that many people find value in and also find value and beauty in creation through it. Some of that is found in neopagan and reconstructionist pagan groups, but it goes far beyond that.

On a personal note, I’ve been enjoying Meditations by Marcus Aurelius who was a Stoic Roman Emperor known as the last of his kind. I participate with the Los Angeles Stoics which is not a religion, but a practical philosophy club. I don’t consider myself a stoic either, simply find it inspiring at times, though find that it falls short in the external needs people have while appreciating the great inner discipline and acceptance of the way things are.

————————————————-

But anyway, I meant to approach your question of moral standards. I didn’t before on purpose. You seem to follow the thinking that morality is the domain of God and all of it has been revealed through the Christian revelation. Is that correct? In addition to that, I believe I remember that you favor Calvinism too. In this belief system a very Holy Transcendent God must save a totally deprived sinner. Frankly, I’m not sure where to meet you on that. You and I are very far apart.

Ethics is type of philosophy, it can help people form various thoughts on morality and it is also found in Christianity. But Christian’s themselves use ethics beyond even what they believe is revealed laws of God. This yearning for goodness is to me a mark of anyone who cares. And that “care” is the first and most ancient and important part of ethics. It is not always measured against a transcendent standard. But it can nevertheless be a powerful help for people who are doing the best they can to be better humans.
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by Del »

Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 So go ahead and call to criminally charge women for “murdering their babies” after they get dumped by their horny boyfriends or worse, raped. Go ahead there fellows, pretend you’re better than I.
This is a huge pro-abortion straw man. It ranks up there with "pro-lifers don't care about children after they're born."

Is anybody proposing to do these things? Criminializing mothers who abort their pregnancies? In any state?

Perhaps some day, voters (especially women) will desire to protect vulnerable mothers from their own temptations.

But in present reality, this generation of pro-life activists see women as victims of abortion culture -- not the perpetrators. We want to protect vulnerable mothers from lying, greedy abortionists and abusive, patriarchal, deadbeat boyfriends.

Pro-life charities offer support and therapies for healing after abortion, not condemnation. (It's the pro-abortion profiteers who say, "You got what you paid for. Problem solved. Now go away.")
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by Del »

Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 16:17 On a personal note, I’ve been enjoying Meditations by Marcus Aurelius who was a Stoic Roman Emperor known as the last of his kind. I participate with the Los Angeles Stoics which is not a religion, but a practical philosophy club. I don’t consider myself a stoic either, simply find it inspiring at times, though find that it falls short in the external needs people have while appreciating the great inner discipline and acceptance of the way things are.
The Stoics are an admirable bunch, and it must have been good to live during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. (Unless you were a Christian, he permitted the persecution of Christians for some reason.)

It's a shame about Marcus's son, Commodus.

The Stoics believed that the circumstances of our lives are predestined by Fate. Nobody in the modern era believes that the gods control our days.... but we do know that shite happens, beyond our control. The Stoic ethic of rolling with the punches is consoling.... and humility in the face of success, too.
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by tuttle »

Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 16:17
tuttle wrote: 11 May 2022, 12:32 [side topic]It's been a while since we've tangled, Thunk. I love you bro. I like the way you tick. And forgive me, while I recall you had a rather wild journey from Christianity to some form of neo-Paganism, when last we left I thought you had, in some way returned to some form of Theism, at least enough to the point where you didn't claim God was purely imaginary.[/side topic]
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 You know, maybe you fellows need to learn to listen for a change. Well except for the imaginary voice in your heads that is. I never said, we shouldn’t ever listen to voices of the past. I said, paraphrased, that we may disregard some of those voices when what they said is complete garbage.
Which brings us back to the question: By what standard do you disregard some voices as garbage? If our standards evolve, then how can we be sure that our disregarding of garbage voices isn't itself just another voice destined for the garbage?
Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 I don’t believe in a Holy Judge who would support the hanging of witches just because they’re witches or merely accused of being one, the destruction of Catholics or even those who would falsely accuse OC Republicans for being gay when they aren’t. So go ahead and call to criminally charge women for “murdering their babies” after they get dumped by their horny boyfriends or worse, raped. Go ahead there fellows, pretend you’re better than I. I don’t celebrate abortion. I hope for a world with happy and hopeful people. A world were abortions are rare and the desire for abortion is rarer. A society that cares deeply for everyone and tries to make sure we all have enough to live a good life, even witches and gays.

You fellows seem to defend hateful men and want to further their bigotry in the name of God. The same sort of evil we see coming from Russia today. A war in which an evil zealot bishop and his wannabe emperor wage a bloody war against what they say is a decedent and liberal west. Just nasty little men they are. Like I said, I don’t know your Holy Judge or Putin’s/Kirill’s. You all prop up the past, especially the wrong parts.
By what standard do you believe rape to be wrong?
To be clear, I was never a Neo pagan. I do however find inspiration in ancient myths, including the Christian ones. Along with music, movies, philosophy and just being out on a mountain top or wading in the surf near my home. I love to learn about ancient technology and prehistoric technology. It’s part of the reason I also enjoy archery and practice almost daily.

But I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that I actually professed (seriously) as being neo pagan. I do remember I accidentally posted something that was meant to be a PM to Rusty as he and I were discussing Nordic myths. We talked about stuff like then in those days as we compared the view of myths between CPS Christians and ancient heathen myths of Europe. There’s not much of interest in much of “neo paganism” to me personally. Especially in it’s popular Wicca forms. I have tended to be far more interested in the work of certain “reconstructionist” heathenism and other linguistic scholarship from those sources. Dr. Jackson Crawford for example has quite a bit of good scholarship readily accessible to most layman like myself. He isn’t a heathen either, but enjoys the topic.

Regardless, there is a resurgence of sorts in a type of pagan/heathen world view and it’s not necessarily one based on traditional beliefs about deity. A different sort of “spirituality” is rising. It’s much more earthy and therapeutic that many people find value in and also find value and beauty in creation through it. Some of that is found in neopagan and reconstructionist pagan groups, but it goes far beyond that.

On a personal note, I’ve been enjoying Meditations by Marcus Aurelius who was a Stoic Roman Emperor known as the last of his kind. I participate with the Los Angeles Stoics which is not a religion, but a practical philosophy club. I don’t consider myself a stoic either, simply find it inspiring at times, though find that it falls short in the external needs people have while appreciating the great inner discipline and acceptance of the way things are.

————————————————-

But anyway, I meant to approach your question of moral standards. I didn’t before on purpose. You seem to follow the thinking that morality is the domain of God and all of it has been revealed through the Christian revelation. Is that correct? In addition to that, I believe I remember that you favor Calvinism too. In this belief system a very Holy Transcendent God must save a totally deprived sinner. Frankly, I’m not sure where to meet you on that. You and I are very far apart.

Ethics is type of philosophy, it can help people form various thoughts on morality and it is also found in Christianity. But Christian’s themselves use ethics beyond even what they believe is revealed laws of God. This yearning for goodness is to me a mark of anyone who cares. And that “care” is the first and most ancient and important part of ethics. It is not always measured against a transcendent standard. But it can nevertheless be a powerful help for people who are doing the best they can to be better humans.
I appreciate your candor. And I wrongly used neo-paganism in more of an informal generic way. I didn't mean to apply something to you that you didn't subscribe to. I do recall conversations about northern mythology. I feel like you'd resonate with much of what C.S. Lewis wrote about his own spiritual journey, but I think I've mentioned that in the past too and you didn't seem so keen on it, or had been there done that, kind of thing.

And ya, I subscribe to calvinism (tho Calvin himself would probably wanna Geneva-slap me) but I don't see what that has to do with my view that God has structured His creation with moral realities. That's just something Christians believe. So even if we don't base our society's laws and judgements on specifically Christian ethics, there remains a bedrock of moral reality. Again, Hammurabi and the Greeks and the Chinese and the pre-Christian Nordics all had a seedbed of this universal morality. Christianity is what made it grow.

So when the claim is made that our ethics evolve and our laws/justice should evolve right along with it and whatever in the past that is opposed to the newly evolved view should be severed, I have two questions, what is guiding the evolution and what is the standard by which we are culling the past overgrowth?

No one doubts that ethics have degrees of change in any society. Our society used to enslave humans and burn witches and now we no longer do. The interesting thing is that the Christian virtue of loving your neighbor was ultimately at the basis of the change. In this way it was less an evolution of ethics and more of a refinement within an existing ethic. We can look back and see the blind spots of our ancestors in the light of Christianity. That is to say, there wasn't a willy-nilly cutting away. We didn't sever the root of Christian ethics to achieve justice, instead we nourished it, appealed to it, used it as our standard for change, and a better way emerged.

So back to those questions. If what we appeal to as our standard isn't rooted in moral reality, but it's just the whims of what we feel, 1) it's self defeating because feelings change. Today's justice will become tomorrow's moral evil, or 2) it's a parasitical ethic, one that lives off the fumes of the very thing it seeks to kill. It's why in the same breath one can claim abortion is health care and rape is evil. That ethic lives off of the moral standard of Christianity when it comes to rape, but wants to throw off the fetters of a magical fairy sky god when it comes to abortion.
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

Post by Del »

Planned Parenthood has been very, very quiet this week.

They expect Roe to be overturned as much as we do.

They do not want to be associated with the radical fools who protest at Justices' homes, vandalize charity Pregnancy Care Centers, disrupt Catholic church services, and make bomb threats. They just make the whole pro-abortion movement look ugly and dangerous.

PP have been positioning themselves for several years now, building large clinics in safe blue states for abortion tourism. They closed their smaller non-surgical clinics all over the country, keeping just the poor urban locations (in states where they can still gouge MedicAid) and those close to universities. They have also expanded into providing transgender drugs and services.
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Post by Del »

Thunktank wrote: 11 May 2022, 09:30 So go ahead and call to criminally charge women for “murdering their babies” after they get dumped by their horny boyfriends or worse, raped. Go ahead there fellows, pretend you’re better than I.
Pro-Life Lobbying Groups Issue Letter Against Charging Women With Crimes For Seeking Abortions
National Right to Life and other pro-life groups sent an “open letter” to lawmakers on Thursday opposing bills that charge mothers with crimes for procuring abortions.

The letter — addressed to “all State Legislators in the United States of America” — cited the leaked Supreme Court majority opinion that would likely overturn Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, noting that there is “increasing news coverage of state-level momentum” to pass abortion regulations.

However, National Right to Life was joined by other pro-life lobbying groups in taking a hard-line stance against passing legislation that imposes criminal penalties upon mothers who seek abortions.
“Women are victims of abortion and require our compassion and support as well as ready access to counseling and social services in the days, weeks, months, and years following an abortion,” the letter said. ...
What I want to see most is a very severe crackdown on anyone selling abortion pills online.

It will be too easy for a scoundrel boyfriend to dose a pregnant mother without her knowledge or consent.
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SCOTUS Decision on Roe Leaked

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I am not as cool as JimVH. Nor or you. Well, unless you ARE JimVH.
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