The Pope Francis Thread

Where Fellowship and Camaraderie lives: that place where the CPS membership values fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community
User avatar
Wosbald
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1109
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 59 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Source: Crux
Link: cruxnow DOT com/vatican/2023/09/new-hong-kong-cardinal-says-vaticans-china-policy-not-naive
New Hong Kong cardinal says Vatican’s China policy ‘not naïve’

〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰

ROME — Cardinal-designate Stephen Chow of Hong Kong, who will receive his red hat from Pope Francis Saturday, has voiced his belief that the Vatican’s approach to dialogue with China is working, and that perceptions it is naïve are wrong.

Chow also said he is happy that two bishops from mainland China will participate in the upcoming Synod of Bishops on Synodality, and sees it as progress in terms of Vatican–China relations.

Referring to the participation of the two bishops at a Sept. 28 press point with journalists, Chow said, “We are very happy about that.”

Asked whether he thought their presence was indicative that the Vatican’s engagement with China is working, he said, “I hope so, but certainly, it’s a positive sign from the Church in China and the government.”

“They realize it’s important for the episcopacy in China to have more connection with the universal Church, with the episcopacy here. So, I hope, and I hope also that they will stay through the synod meeting,” he said.

The Chinese bishops who will participate in the synod are Bishop Antonio Yao Shun of Jining-Wumeng, in Inner Mongolia, and Bishop Giuseppe Yang Yongqiang of Zhoucun in Shandong.

While set to attend at least part of the Oct. 4–29 synod, some observers believe they will leave before the synod concludes.

[…]

In reference to his return visit to Beijing, Chow said that he will go not to meet with Li Shan, but for “other meetings.”

“The more we go, we will have more contacts. I will probably go into China to visit other dioceses, that’s for sure, because they invited me, they said come, see all the dioceses if you want. That’s very generous of them,” he said.

However, with 97 dioceses, Chow said he doubted that he would have time to visit all of them, but said his return visit is “just to know more, to see how we can have more exchange.”

Further exchanges are already being planned with the Diocese of Beijing “to see how we can have more collaboration, in the formation of clergy, etc. There’s a lot to build on, it’s very exciting. And we pray, we always have to,” he said.

“People will say that we’re naïve, but we always have to have some optimism, some positive things,” Chow said, saying, “They also have good people, they also have goodwill, they also want to see something good happening, and we do.”

“So, when the good meet together and encounter, beautiful things can happen,” he said.

In terms of his appointment as a cardinal, Chow said it was a “surprise” and that even though sitting bishops of Hong Kong receive a red hat, “I don’t think we should assume the Holy Father would continue.”

Chow said he hopes his presence bring diversity to the College of Cardinals, noting that Hong Kong has traditionally been “a bridge between east and west, and so is the Church, between the Church in China and the universal Church, and we would like to see that come closer.”


Image
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2417
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 274 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Jocose »

https://x.com/ProtecttheFaith/status/17 ... 76394?s=20

I've seen versions of this meme on social media posted by faithful Catholics

One thing it shows is that the authority of the Petrine Office has collapsed under Jorge Bergoglio due to his advocacy of multiple heresies and his relentless attacks against faithful Catholics

It represents an unprecedented reversal of faithful Catholics' attitudes to the office of pope, that until Jorge Bergoglio, was highly revered and respected

This collapse of respect for the teaching and moral authority of the pope should concern the world's bishops, but the vast majority are either heretics or complicit through silence

Image
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2417
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 274 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Jocose »

https://x.com/obianuju/status/1714057688164729273?s=20
Whoopi really wanted to meet Pope Francis for 11 years now, so she finally met the Pope…Listen to her main reason for wanting to meet the Pope.
Satan is circling the Catholic Church like a vulture with very specific interest👉🏾the blessing of sexual sins.
The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Jocose
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2417
Joined: 09 Apr 2022, 12:10
Location: Ulaanbaatar
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 274 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Jocose »

The views expressed here are either mine or not my own, not sure.
The opinions expressed here may or may not be my own.
I post links to stuff.
Make your own choices.
User avatar
Del
Deacon
Deacon
Posts: 3013
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 252 times
Been thanked: 427 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Del »

Guys: If you click on the link, it opens in Twitter. Then click on the picture of Pope Francis, and it opens an article from CBS News.

And then you get CBS's magisterium on what Pope Francis should do regarding the sanctification of sexual sin. There are no quotes from Pope Francis... but lots of remarks by L-Gibbity-Q reps and media activists.
The landscape for LGBTQ members of the Catholic church is confusing, said Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, a nonprofit that advocates for Catholics in the LGBTQ community. She told CBS News that much depends on where the congregation is located and the bishop's interpretation of Catholic doctrine.

The pope's comments seem to be the start of a process, Duddy-Burke said, and many LGBTQ Catholics and their supporters are excited for further advancement. The church has to go through a huge culture change to survive in the modern world and "we have to decide as a church how to move forward," she said.

Some priests and nuns are moving forward on their own. Last month, several Catholic priests in Germany held a ceremony blessing around 30 same-sex couples, reported the Associated Press.

In America, the landscape is complicated. In the 2023 National Survey of Religious Leaders, 40% of U.S. Catholic priests answered "yes" to the question: "Would you perform the wedding of a same-sex couple if your religious group allowed it?"

And that "suggests that a large minority of U.S. Catholic priests personally support same-sex marriages," said Marc Chaves, a professor at Duke University specializing in the sociology of religion.
Actually, this represents a portion of priests who don't weren't asked the question honestly -- which is that they will obey their Church, but they never expect the Church to abandon biblical teaching. It also measures a number of old, gay priests, who don't really believe what Christ's Church teaches about sexual sin.

But even in the story headline: A Catholic Sister is not a minister of sacraments and sacramental blessings. She's just an old crone who (15 years ago, at age 70) decided to put liberal sexual morality above her promises to Christ.
=====================================

We already know there are gay priests and bad sisters.

The good news is that they are getting old, like Pope Francis.
The bad news is that some of them are still active and powerful, as bishops and cardinals and a sympathetic pope. The next generation will labor much to repair the damage of the Boomer Church.
User avatar
Wosbald
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1109
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 59 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Source: Where Peter Is
Link: wherepeteris DOT com/cardinal-burke-the-dubia-and-todays-gospel/
Cardinal Burke, the Dubia, and Today’s Gospel [Explainer, Analysis, Opinion]

〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰

Oct. 22, 2023 — In today’s gospel reading, Matthew recounts an attempt by the Pharisees to force Jesus into a no-win situation. They ask him, “Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?” (Mt 22:17).

Their ulterior motive was obvious — to trap Jesus in a no-win situation. If he advocated paying taxes to Caesar, he risked alienating the Jewish crowd who despised Roman taxation. Conversely, if he rejected the idea, he could be accused of insurrection against the Roman authorities.

“Knowing their malice” (v. 18), Jesus gives an answer that confounds his critics and leaves them scrambling for another way to trip him up. He tells them, “Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God” (v. 21).

As Fr. Alex Roche put it in this morning’s scripture reflection, “Jesus refuses to play their game.”

Many have noted that Pope Francis often employs a similar approach when his critics attempt to entrap him into a false binary or when they level accusations against him.

Perhaps the clearest example of this occurred In late 2016, when four cardinals — Burke, Brandmuller, Caffarra, and Meisner — presented Pope Francis with the set of five questions (the “dubia”) related to his apostolic exhortation on marriage and the family, Amoris Laetitia. In presenting the dubia to Pope Francis, these cardinals — like the Herodians and the disciples of the Pharisees in today’s gospel — attempted to force the pope into a lose–lose position. And just as Christ did not give his interlocuters an answer they hoped for, Pope Francis did not dignify their modern counterparts with a response to their loaded questions.

Frustrated by the lack of response from the pope to the dubia, the cardinals turned to the mass media and released the dubia to the public, an unprecedented act of subordination against a pope by the cardinals that inflicted immeasurable harm against the Church. It continues to cause damage today.

Not a simple request for clarification

[…]

The 2016 dubia were far different [from more historically customary dubia]. Rather than posing questions that truly sought authoritative answers from the pope, the four cardinals were well aware of the answers they wanted him to give. They composed the questions in such a way that anything other than their desired response was designed to force the pope to commit heresy.

Also noteworthy is the amount of time that elapsed between the date the cardinals submitted the dubia (September 19, 2016) and when they released them to the public (November 15). This timeframe — less than two months — is incredibly short when considering the typical wait for a responsum. In his book The Orthodoxy of 'Amoris Laetitia', Pedro Gabriel surveyed a variety of well-known Vatican responses to dubia in recent decades. Typically, a year or more will elapse before a response is given.

This suggests that the dubia cardinals were chomping at the bit to force the pope’s hand, and their subsequent behavior — especially that of Cardinal Burke — demonstrates that they were determined to fight him until they got their way.

The false binary

In addition to the five questions, the cardinals enclosed three other documents with the dubia: “A Necessary Foreword,” a letter from the cardinals to the pope, and an “Explanatory Note.” Although the wording of the dubia alone are loaded with presumptions and ideological baggage, with these supplementary documents the cardinals overplayed their hand and made it impossible for the pope to give a concise response.

It is also important to note that the dubia cannot really be considered requests for clarification on the proper interpretation or implementation of Amoris Laetitia. Rather, they are challenges to the moral theology and doctrinal orthodoxy of the exhortation. There is very little subtlety, especially in questions 2 through 5, that the cardinals’ real intention is either to expose the pope as an adherent of proportionalism or situation ethics or to force him to renounce his teaching in Amoris.

The first dubium, however, serves as the clearest example of the way the cardinals set a trap for Pope Francis. The cardinals write (emphasis in original):
It is asked whether, following the affirmations of Amoris Laetitia (300–305), it has now become possible to grant absolution in the sacrament of penance and thus to admit to holy Communion a person who, while bound by a valid marital bond, lives together with a different person more uxorio without fulfilling the conditions provided for by Familiaris Consortio, 84, and subsequently reaffirmed by Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, 34, and Sacramentum Caritatis, 29. Can the expression “in certain cases” found in Note 351 (305) of the exhortation Amoris Laetitia be applied to divorced persons who are in a new union and who continue to live more uxorio?
The answer to this question is already clear from the text of Amoris Laetitia itself, as well as in Pope Francis’s response to the guidelines submitted by the bishops of the Buenos Aires region (which was already known by the time the dubia were made public). Many well-respected Catholic thinkers such as Rodrigo Guerra and Rocco Buttiglione — neither of whom could be called a leftist — provided responses to this dubium that reflect the approach of the Buenos Aires Bishops.

The indisputable answer to this dubium is a qualified “yes.”

The Buenos Aires guidelines explain, “If it is acknowledged that, in a concrete case, there are limitations that mitigate responsibility and culpability (cf. 301-302), especially when a person believes he/she would incur a subsequent fault by harming the children of the new union, Amoris laetitia offers the possibility of having access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist (cf. footnotes 336 and 351).”

Of course, this is not unrestricted access to the sacraments, and it requires serious discernment and the accompaniment of a pastor (chapter 8 of Amoris is written as a guide for pastors, remember). If, after an examination of conscience, it is determined that the person bears unmitigated culpability for the sin of adultery, then admission to the sacraments is not a possibility.

One might then ask, if the answer is so simple, why didn’t Pope Francis just say this?

Unfortunately, the cardinals set a trap for him in their Explanatory Note. They indicate that a “yes” answer would imply that Pope Francis has taught one of three errors. They write:
It would seem that admitting to Communion those of the faithful who are separated or divorced from their rightful spouse and who have entered a new union in which they live with someone else as if they were husband and wife would mean for the Church to teach by her practice one of the following affirmations about marriage, human sexuality and the nature of the sacraments:
  • A divorce does not dissolve the marriage bond, and the partners to the new union are not married. However, people who are not married can under certain circumstances legitimately engage in acts of sexual intimacy.
  • A divorce dissolves the marriage bond. People who are not married cannot legitimately engage in sexual acts. The divorced and remarried are legitimate spouses and their sexual acts are lawful marital acts.
  • A divorce does not dissolve the marriage bond, and the partners to the new union are not married. People who are not married cannot legitimately engage in sexual acts, so that the divorced and civilly remarried live in a situation of habitual, public, objective and grave sin. However, admitting persons to the Eucharist does not mean for the Church to approve their public state of life; the faithful can approach the Eucharistic table even with consciousness of grave sin, and receiving absolution in the sacrament of penance does not always require the purpose of amending one’s life. The sacraments, therefore, are detached from life: Christian rites and worship are on a completely different sphere than the Christian moral life.
The first theory suggests that Pope Francis has affirmed that sex between unmarried persons is morally licit. Yet throughout the exhortation — including the opening words of its controversial eighth chapter — he emphatically insists that any form of sexual sin “is against the will of God” (AL 291).

Theory two suggests that Pope Francis rejects the indissolubility of marriage. This is also a falsehood, and Pope Francis affirms the teaching repeatedly in Amoris Laetitia, most emphatically in paragraph 62.

The third theory is based on two false premises. The cardinals fail to acknowledge the possibility that mitigated culpability (the discernment of which is central to chapter eight) might diminish a person’s guilt for committing a sin with grave matter. Based on this glaring oversight, the cardinals seem to presume that answering “yes” to this dubium is to sanction receiving communion while in a state of mortal sin and granting absolution to the unrepentant. Their conclusion is rash and, frankly, offensive. Pope Francis took all of this into careful account in the exhortation, yet they completely ignore his reasoning and invent their own.

Even more insulting are the other four dubia, because in them the cardinals called into doubt Pope Francis’s belief in objective morality. Honestly, if they had any dignity at all, any cardinals who would direct such an insinuation at the pope would turn in their red hats before doing so. These cardinals apparently lacked such grace. Nor, apparently, were they able to distinguish between situation ethics and the honest examination of the state of one’s soul before God.

It was deliberate

If there was ever any doubt about the dubia being a deliberate attempt by the cardinals to entrap Pope Francis, Cardinal Burke put them to rest in early 2017 in an interview with Michael Matt of the Remnant.
Michael Matt: [​I]s it even possible for you to envision a scenario whereby you suddenly discover that you’ve missed something, that the Four Cardinals are misinterpreting it, and that you’d have to concede you were wrong? I mean if that’s not possible, then what is the point of the dubia? Don’t you already know the answers to your five questions?

Cardinal Burke: Certainly we do. But the important thing is that the pastor of the universal Church, in his office as guardian of the truths of the Faith and promoter of the truths of the faith — that he make clear that, yes, he answers these questions in the same way that the Church answers them.
In other words, they were trying to force the pope to conform to their ideology and submit to their worldview. There was not an ounce of goodwill in the dubia, these cardinals didn’t care one whit about the pope’s teaching or doctrinal authority. Much like Jesus’s interlocutors in today’s gospel, they went away frustrated when they did not receive a response that they could exploit in order to take control over the Church and force the hand of the pope.

Unfortunately for the dubia cardinals and their supporters, anything Pope Francis teaches that challenges their entrenched doctrinal ideas isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. Their response to Amoris Laetitia, which reaffirms Catholic doctrine but invites us to reconsider how we approach the concrete situations of people living in irregular unions, is the most telling example of this attitude. As Cardinal Marc Ouellet wrote in L’Osservatore Romano, “Some made it impossible for themselves to appreciate anything of the new papal document because they first checked whether this chapter confirmed their pre-existing views or not.”

[…]


Image
User avatar
Del
Deacon
Deacon
Posts: 3013
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 252 times
Been thanked: 427 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Del »

Wosbald wrote: 23 Oct 2023, 13:35 +JMJ+

Source: Where Peter Is
Link: wherepeteris DOT com/cardinal-burke-the-dubia-and-todays-gospel/
Cardinal Burke, the Dubia, and Today’s Gospel [Explainer, Analysis, Opinion]
This is disgusting.

The Cardinals laid out Catholic teaching regarding divorce and remarriage -- which has always been and is still exactly what Jesus said in the Gospel -- and asked Francis directly if his long, long Apostolic Exhortation with the scandalous footnote affirmed this faith or denied this faith. Which was a fair question, as bishops in various regions were all over the spectrum in applying this "new gospel."

Your blogger portrays this as a "trap," and even claims that the faithful Cardinals were disingenuous in asking these questions.

I still think that Francis was the disingenuous one -- in waiting seven years to answer that serial polygamy is indeed permissible now, by his decree. And then appointing his flaming gay cardinal protégée to lead the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. At least he had the decency to wait until Benedict XVI was dead first.
User avatar
Wosbald
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1109
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 59 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Del wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 11:07
Wosbald wrote: 23 Oct 2023, 13:35 Source: Where Peter Is
Link: wherepeteris DOT com/cardinal-burke-the-dubia-and-todays-gospel/
Cardinal Burke, the Dubia, and Today’s Gospel [Explainer, Analysis, Opinion]
…]

I still think that Francis was the disingenuous one -- in waiting seven years to answer … by his decree.
I'm not sure whether you're making some crucial distinction with the "by his decree" qualifier, but as I mentioned upthread, the Buenos Aires protocols have been available for a solid 5–6 years now, being Magisterially-published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis in 2017–2018.

:?: Is that 5–6 year buffer somehow not Full-Disclosure enough?


Image
User avatar
Del
Deacon
Deacon
Posts: 3013
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 252 times
Been thanked: 427 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Del »

Wosbald wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 12:55 +JMJ+
Del wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 11:07 I still think that Francis was the disingenuous one -- in waiting seven years to answer … by his decree.
I'm not sure whether you're making some crucial distinction with the "by his decree" qualifier, but as I mentioned upthread, the Buenos Aires protocols have been available for a solid 5–6 years now, being Magisterially-published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis in 2017–2018.

:?: Is that 5–6 year buffer somehow not Full-Disclosure enough?
Amoris Laetitia was published by Francis, confusingly without any participation with the normal and usual Magisterium -- the world's Catholic bishops. Very long, and the dubious part wasn't even stated as the thesis of a chapter. It was a footnote, in Chapter 8.

While the Beunos Aires protocols have been around, so have the Dutch protocols and the American protocols... all three, very different. From "Do what you will" to "Nothing has changed." I suppose Francis published some of those protocols somewhere, but most of the Church wasn't even aware of this. This isn't how major definitions to theological errors are corrected.

"Magisterially-published"?! Try explaining that one to your Catholic grandmother!

What we have now is a new dispute regarding ancient Christian faith and sins against sacramental marriage. We both know how this will end. Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit will use this a teaching moment to remind Christians what God meant by marriage, "from the beginning."
Jesus Teaches About Divorce

Mt 19:1 After Jesus said all these things, he left Galilee and went into the area of Judea on the other side of the Jordan River. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus and tried to trick him. They asked, “Is it right for a man to divorce his wife for any reason he chooses?”

4 Jesus answered, “Surely you have read in the Scriptures: When God made the world, ‘he made them male and female.’ 5 And God said, ‘So a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two will become one body.’ 6 So there are not two, but one. God has joined the two together, so no one should separate them.”

7 The Pharisees asked, “Why then did Moses give a command for a man to divorce his wife by giving her divorce papers?”

8 Jesus answered, “Moses allowed you to divorce your wives because you refused to accept God’s teaching, but divorce was not allowed in the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman is guilty of adultery.
Henry VIII baptized divorce for English-speaking Protestants.... but other than this, divorce and remarriage is not part of Christian Tradition.
User avatar
Wosbald
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1109
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 59 times

The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Del wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 14:58
Wosbald wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 12:55 I'm not sure whether you're making some crucial distinction with the "by his decree" qualifier, but as I mentioned upthread, the Buenos Aires protocols have been available for a solid 5–6 years now, being Magisterially-published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis in 2017–2018.

:?: Is that 5–6 year buffer somehow not Full-Disclosure enough?
[…]

While the Buenos Aires protocols have been around, so have the Dutch protocols and the American protocols... all three, very different. From "Do what you will" to "Nothing has changed." I suppose Francis published some of those protocols somewhere, but most of the Church wasn't even aware of this. …
Again, as I mentioned upthread, it was widely publicized. It was repeatedly mentioned on OldCPS. It was published in the EWTN-affiliated National Catholic Register:
in Dec '17, National Catholic Register wrote:On the Pope’s personal instruction, the 2016 Buenos Aires bishops’ guidelines on Chapter 8 of his post-synodal apostolic exhortation, Amoris Laetitia, appeared last week in the Holy See’s journal of juridical record, the Acta Apostolicae Sedis AAS). The interpretation permits the sacrament of reconciliation and Holy Communion in some cases for remarried divorcees who, for example, try to live lives of sexual abstinence but must continue to live together for the sake of raising their children.

Title: "The Pope’s Endorsement of Argentina’s Amoris Guidelines: What It Means"
Link: ncregister DOT com/news/the-pope-s-endorsement-of-argentina-s-amoris-guidelines-what-it-means
〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰
Del wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 14:58[…]

"Magisterially-published"?! Try explaining that one to your Catholic grandmother!

[…]
It means it's authoritatively promulgated by the Magisterium. What's so hard about that?

〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰〰
Del wrote: 24 Oct 2023, 14:58[…]

What we have now is a new dispute regarding ancient Christian faith and sins against sacramental marriage. …

[…]
I guess it depends on what one means by "dispute".

Cuz, now that they have been Magisterially-published, there's no dispute that the Buenos Aires protocols are a principally legit way-of-proceeding. They are not the only legit way, but they are a legit way.

OTOH, I s'pose there might be a dispute inasmuch as one could have the prudential opinion that — even if principally legit — this Pope (or a subsequent Pope) should rescind the protocols and return to the older way-of-proceeding. That is an admissible point that can be debated, sho'nuff.

:character-oldtimer:


Image
Post Reply