Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

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Fascism

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Wosbald wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 10:52 +JMJ+
FredS wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 10:26 I know a lot of young Democrat voters are still scared of the orange man because they believed the msm before the election. They should keep paying attention when msnbc did an about face and sent their folks to have lunch at his house. They should be watching Dr Jill and Trump sitting next to each other, smiling, making small talk at Notre Dame Cathedral. Shaking hands with the president of France and being welcomed to the palace. They should watch the Prime Minister of Canada visiting his home and the Mexican President calling to beg for good relations. All of this before he's even in office.

[…]
And Pope Pius XII kept open lines of communication with Hitler (and was correct to do so). So what?

This proves nothing other than, as I've said before, we hafta learn to live with everyone (even with those whom we must oppose to the face). As Pope Francis teaches in Fratelli Tutti, no one can be Othered — no one can be Demonized.

:angry-devil:
No one is being "othered" or demonized.

What this proves is that our faith in the common sense of Americans have been validated. I wasn't so sure, for a while.

For those who do not believe in America or common sense, there are the hilarious grasps at nonsensical explanations -- such as claiming that MAGA is motivated by racism. Even the millions of Black, Hispanic, Jewish, and Native American voters who switched from Biden 2020 to Trump 2024.
Last edited by Del on 14 Dec 2024, 11:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Fascism

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Jocose wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 12:22
Wosbald wrote: Trump is a Fascist, but there are many ways to skin a Fascist. Demonization is not one of them — the prince of the world is already thrown down.

https://x.com/LeadingReport/status/1867181794811875523

For the first time in U.S. history, a Nativity scene, along with prayer, Christmas carols, and a Scripture reading of the birth of Jesus, was held at the U.S. Capitol.
Fascinating!!!! Who perpetrated this blasphemy against the established secular religion????
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Hovannes »

I think Biden's Presidential Library should be downgraded to a Bookmobile that also serves ice cream.
Just a thought.
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Hovannes »

Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall." Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow. According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and pa…

Wikipedia · Text under CC-BY-SA license
Published: Jul 5, 2022
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Del »

Hovannes wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 06:04 Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall." Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow. According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and pa…

Wikipedia · Text under CC-BY-SA license
Published: Jul 5, 2022
This deserves a proper link and a full quote, I think.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definitions
Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[28] Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[29] According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.
I am intrigued by the final reference to a "far-right." I got to thinking about what that really means....

In America, we can roughly equate Left and Right with Democrats and Republicans.

I want to meditate a bit on what it means to be "Center" and "Far." I think it comes down to practical tactics, rather than ideologies.

In the Center, we like good, old-fashioned American democracy:
Persuasion. Free Speech. Fair elections. Orderly government via the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches and their separation of powers.

Whereas the Far extremists favor lies and violence:
Propaganda and misinformation. Controlled media. Riots, street violence, threats and terrorism. Cancel culture, censorship, and silencing of voices. Rule by draconian orders and defiant disregard for lawful legislation.

If we use this reckoning, it explains why Bernie Sanders is still in the Senate. He still uses Centrist tactics -- speeches and political campaigns -- even if many consider his policies as "extreme." He was not damaged politically by the Bernie Bro who shot at Republican congressmen, because Bernie never, ever called for violence.
Likewise, voters are not holding Trump responsible for the events of January 6 -- because Trump has never called for violence nor praised acts of violence.

Basically, America does not have a Far-Right. We can't name any groups or movements that practice this way. And when a fringe group pops up, elected Republicans and party voters want nothing to do with them.
There was some chatter about an "Alt-Right" movement a few years ago, but that never got off the ground. We don't even hear about them anymore.

On the other hand, there are many Far-Left movements in America. BLM, pro-Palestine, L-gibbity community, environmental climate alarmists.
And the Far Left have taken over the Democrat Party. Elected Democrats support them. Democrat voters put out lawn signs and drape flags. When a trust fund kid assassinates a healthcare CEO, they justify his violence and sell fan swag.
====================

This election was unique. Trump is a singular personality of genius. Biden/Kamala were profoundly inept, as candidates goes.

But what has Democrat leaders worried is the realization that they have ceded the entire center of the spectrum to the Republicans.... and the MAGA movement has imbued dozens of capable leaders with the will to lead and accomplish good policy for America.

Meanwhile the Democrat Machine is firmly tethered to the Far Left. Centrist voters no longer trust the mainstream media, so Democrats cannot control the narrative by propaganda, spin, and killing stories. Donors can no longer profit by controlling regulatory agencies. Democrats have no inspiring and charismatic candidates to run for high office.

The most famous and popular Democrat in Congress is John Fetterman.... Let that sink in.
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 10:12 . . . Donors can no longer profit by controlling regulatory agencies . . .
The donor thing goes both ways. Though both covet and shout about their small grass roots donors, neither side has a monopoly on big corporate donations.
<<Here have big pharma and big media. They tend to favor regulation inasmuch as it protects them.<<
>>Here we have big oil and big transportation. They tend to disfavor regulation inasmuch as it doesn't harm them.>>

Two very different mindsets there - protection por favor, and hands off por favor. A young FredS, circa 1970, standing in the kitchen washing dishes with his mother asked what was/is the difference between republicans and democrats. My mother, ever the pragmatic Kansas said "They both want what's good. Democrats think they should spend your money on good things and Republicans think you should spend your money on good things." We could paraphrase dear old mom by saying "Democrats want to protect big donors via increased regulation, Republicans want to leave big donors alone via reduced regulation."
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 10:51
Del wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 10:12 . . . Donors can no longer profit by controlling regulatory agencies . . .
The donor thing goes both ways. Though both covet and shout about their small grass roots donors, neither side has a monopoly on big corporate donations.
<<Here have big pharma and big media. They tend to favor regulation inasmuch as it protects them.<<
>>Here we have big oil and big transportation. They tend to disfavor regulation inasmuch as it doesn't harm them.>>

Two very different mindsets there - protection por favor, and hands off por favor. A young FredS, circa 1970, standing in the kitchen washing dishes with his mother asked what was/is the difference between republicans and democrats. My mother, ever the pragmatic Kansas said "They both want what's good. Democrats think they should spend your money on good things and Republicans think you should spend your money on good things." We could paraphrase dear old mom by saying "Democrats want to protect big donors via increased regulation, Republicans want to leave big donors alone via reduced regulation."
American elections are too expensive, and so Big Donors have a door to buy influence. I agree that this is a problem.

My larger point is that America is bereft of a vigorous center-Left Party.

While I am happy that voters are awake and the Far-Left appears to be caged up for the next decade or so, I believe that America needs both lungs working to sustain a healthy civilization.

At the moment, it looks like the far-left are being pushed to the fringes where they belong. We'll just have to see if the Democrats can re-occupy the center-left, or if Republicans are going to control the center for decades -- with inter-party debates between conservative-Republicans and liberal-Republicans. No one can tell from here....

At least we can all be glad that no far-right movement shows signs of life in America, and I hope it stays that way. A fascistic America is a horrible thing to consider.
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 12:37 At the moment, it looks like the far-left are being pushed to the fringes where they belong. We'll just have to see if the Democrats can re-occupy the center-left, or if Republicans are going to control the center for decades -- with inter-party debates between conservative-Republicans and liberal-Republicans. No one can tell from here....
If Trump plays this like I think he will, I'm pretty sure the left will be down for 20 years. I know what it looks like in my family right now - - - like most young people, my kids and their spouses are 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative'. As long as Trump and his successors keep them safe, create a lasting strong economy, and stay out of their bedrooms and medicine cabinets - you know if he's exactly the opposite of what the MSM said he'd be - they won't go back to the woke cancel culture. They've seen, and will remember, where that led.
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 12:51
Del wrote: 16 Dec 2024, 12:37 At the moment, it looks like the far-left are being pushed to the fringes where they belong. We'll just have to see if the Democrats can re-occupy the center-left, or if Republicans are going to control the center for decades -- with inter-party debates between conservative-Republicans and liberal-Republicans. No one can tell from here....
If Trump plays this like I think he will, I'm pretty sure the left will be down for 20 years. I know what it looks like in my family right now - - - like most young people, my kids and their spouses are 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative'. As long as Trump and his successors keep them safe, create a lasting strong economy, and stay out of their bedrooms and medicine cabinets - you know if he's exactly the opposite of what the MSM said he'd be - they won't go back to the woke cancel culture. They've seen, and will remember, where that led.
I am also hopeful and optimistic for America.

But things are still precariously balanced, and it could go sideways again very quickly.... so, cautiously hopeful.
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Election Thread II: Kamala vs. Trump

Post by Del »

Trump gave a full, one-hour press conference today. Answered all the questions with full-throttle confidence. And the press asked good questions, with genuine curiosity about policies and developments.... not just a bunch of accusations and gotchas. Drones, Iran, vaccines, and announcing $100B in new tech-sector investments by a huge Japanese investment bank.

Tremendously refreshing!

And yet, somehow, I'm going to miss the back of Joe Biden's head.

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