Gun Control 2022

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Post by sweetandsour »

Times have changed, but in some ways things haven't. I couldn't remember the year when a kid at the school where my older sister was went home and returned to school with a .410 single shot and shot two teachers. I googled and found an old news clip, it was 1963.

https://newspaperarchive.winona.edu/?a= ... xIN-------

I was just across campus at the elementary school. Three years later when I attended that same Jr high, my English class was in the room where the door had been blasted with the .410. The door was still there in use, with the shot holes filled in and sanded down, the pattern still visible. One of my coaches was the one that finally tackled the kid while he was reloading.

Anyway, I weep for our society. Pretty much everything moral is political. I weep for those suffering in Uvalde and elsewhere, including the person that sold those rifles to that kid in Uvalde.
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Post by FredS »

The primary issue is that a lot of people (most conservatives and even old school liberals) don't trust the federal government - both elected and un-elected positions - to use restraint when writing "common sense" laws or restrictions. The feds didn't do themselves any favors with their over reaching covid mandates and restrictions. Canada's freezing of banking and paypal accounts whose funds were being directed towards groups protesting the governments marshal laws should worry everyone who's concerned about the feds ever-increasing attempts to clamp down on citizen rights.

There are cries right now from the left for Ol' Joe to use his executive powers to do something, anything, to 'control' guns, regardless of what the laws say. Don't wait for laws to change, just write a handful of orders.
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Post by jmg »

FredS wrote: 31 May 2022, 16:52 The primary issue is that a lot of people (most conservatives and even old school liberals) don't trust the federal government - both elected and un-elected positions - to use restraint when writing "common sense" laws or restrictions. The feds didn't do themselves any favors with their over reaching covid mandates and restrictions. Canada's freezing of banking and paypal accounts whose funds were being directed towards groups protesting the governments marshal laws should worry everyone who's concerned about the feds ever-increasing attempts to clamp down on citizen rights.

There are cries right now from the left for Ol' Joe to use his executive powers to do something, anything, to 'control' guns, regardless of what the laws say. Don't wait for laws to change, just write a handful of orders.
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Post by tuttle »

Thunktank wrote: 31 May 2022, 14:39
tuttle wrote: 31 May 2022, 13:31 I have a theory that all these liberal pundits and politicians are purposefully not accurate about their descriptions of guns so that when they create policy to begin restricting certain types of guns, their inaccuracy will extend to more than they've let on.

For example:



CNN's definition of 'assault rifles' covers some handguns.
I suppose you also have a theory that Biden stole the election too? Of course I’m taking a big guess and leap, but at this point I’m truly convinced that the average Republican today are so ideologically driven that objective reality is all but gone.
That's a weird rabbit trail. I have an answer for you, but probably better discussed in another thread.
Thunktank wrote: 31 May 2022, 14:39 Now, I’ve seen CNN try to explain the dangers of assault weapons. They sometimes bungle it, but again, they get the basic idea that some of these guns are capable of laying down more fire than any civilian needs.

You know how whenever you have some sort of expertise in something, even relative competency in something, and someone comes along and begins talking about your something in a way that is wrong on many levels, to the point at which you don't even know where to begin to correct them because you realize they are either so very dumb, or likely have some other point in mind altogether? Now imagine it's their job to convey correct information to people who don't have the same knowledge you do about that particular subject.

Those really are the options for news outlets like CNN on this and many topics: absurd stupidity or an agenda. And because that information is readily available to anyone who desires to learn, and because they've proven ad nauseum that they are in lock step with a political party who does have an agenda, then a theory, such as the one I offered, is really just one logical interpretation of the facts.
Thunktank wrote: 31 May 2022, 14:39 It’s baffling to me how the social conservatives claim to be pro-life then turn around and positively refuse to acknowledge that easy access to guns is fundamentally deadly. They refuse! I have heard some the dumbest excuses put forth by Republicans lately for why mass shootings are happening and what to do about it. Everything from arming teachers, to installing bullet proof glass, having every student get into school through one door, having armed security behind that one door. It’s absolutely absurd!
We're talking band-aids for cancer. Even if you stop the spread to schools it's gonna pop up somewhere else until we start treating the main issues.

But in the meantime, how about we shut schools down? Certainly that isn't an absurd notion. I mean, they did it for COVID which never killed any kids on any sort of mass scale. Why don't Democrats care for our children!?!
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Post by Thunktank »

Tuttle, rabbit trail, yes perhaps. Not without good cause though. . .

You talk about core problems, which I agree is very important. This is why I bring up American relationships with guns and how that plays within our cultural norms and human perspectives. America clearly had a problem with mass shootings in the past couple of decades. I don’t believe it is merely an issue of guns or types of guns, or mental health in and of itself either. But I also believe mental health and thoughtful gun reform are part of the solution. As would be a change in culture itself. This includes “gun culture” too.

There are other countries with high levels of private gun ownership. Switzerland for example even has citizens with real “assault weapons” albeit with rules . They actually have a working and official regulated militia. Riflemanship is taught and valued. These other countries are among the least violent countries in the world despite the high level of gun ownership. It begs the question, what makes these countries different? Is there something we could learn from them? Specifically, I’m thinking about most Northern European countries, Canada and Australia. Some of these counties have had a mass shooting or two as well, but the continued rate of mass shootings isn’t anywhere near our own per capita.

I’m going to take a shot at it (pun intended). I think America has not only become less responsible individually, but also less responsible collectively and socially. We have also conflated freedom with those responsibilities to each other to the point that there is refusal to allow any regulations at all. Regulations themselves should support those individual and collective responsibilities and freedoms work within that framework. We have it largely figured out in some ways, but fail miserably in others.

I think what’s hard for me as an American to understand is how other countries prohibit gun purchases for self defense period. Maybe that’s part of the problem here, as that has become too important here. I don’t know. We need guns to defend ourselves from bad guys with guns! Our bad guys get guns easily, even when they aren’t connected to organized crime. Heck, any common thief in Texas (or just about any southern or mountain west state) can break into a few trucks and acquire a handgun without much trouble.

Just my .02
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Post by tuttle »

Thunktank wrote: 01 Jun 2022, 12:37 Tuttle, rabbit trail, yes perhaps. Not without good cause though. . .

You talk about core problems, which I agree is very important. This is why I bring up American relationships with guns and how that plays within our cultural norms and human perspectives. America clearly had a problem with mass shootings in the past couple of decades. I don’t believe it is merely an issue of guns or types of guns, or mental health in and of itself either. But I also believe mental health and thoughtful gun reform are part of the solution. As would be a change in culture itself. This includes “gun culture” too.

There are other countries with high levels of private gun ownership. Switzerland for example even has citizens with real “assault weapons” albeit with rules . They actually have a working and official regulated militia. Riflemanship is taught and valued. These other countries are among the least violent countries in the world despite the high level of gun ownership. It begs the question, what makes these countries different? Is there something we could learn from them? Specifically, I’m thinking about most Northern European countries, Canada and Australia. Some of these counties have had a mass shooting or two as well, but the continued rate of mass shootings isn’t anywhere near our own per capita.

I’m going to take a shot at it (pun intended). I think America has not only become less responsible individually, but also less responsible collectively and socially. We have also conflated freedom with those responsibilities to each other to the point that there is refusal to allow any regulations at all. Regulations themselves should support those individual and collective responsibilities and freedoms work within that framework. We have it largely figured out in some ways, but fail miserably in others.

I think what’s hard for me as an American to understand is how other countries prohibit gun purchases for self defense period. Maybe that’s part of the problem here, as that has become too important here. I don’t know. We need guns to defend ourselves from bad guys with guns! Our bad guys get guns easily, even when they aren’t connected to organized crime. Heck, any common thief in Texas (or just about any southern or mountain west state) can break into a few trucks and acquire a handgun without much trouble.

Just my .02
I don't necessarily want to get into a Switzerland/US gun policy back and forth, but one difference is that the Swiss require every able bodied male to join the army and it's mandated they own guns, at least during their time of service. My guess is that training every male, and every female that volunteers, goes a long way into shaping their 'gun culture'.

Beyond that, for countries that have a right to bear arms, I think it matters a great deal how that country believes such a right is derived. Is the right bestowed by the State or bestowed by something beyond the State? I don't know where Switzerland or other gun-rights countries stand, but the right to bear arms is recognized by the US, not bestowed. And like it or not, that's the context we must work with for good or ill. Any tinkering with that, regardless of the intent of the reasoning for the tinkering, must keep that context in consideration, for at some point we're no longer merely dealing with gun issues, but with authority issues. And boiled down, brass tacks, the second amendment is about freedom, not responsibility. It's no wonder our founders made statements such as:
John Adams wrote:But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation, while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candour, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in the rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. Because we have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
And so, the solution goes well beyond the need to introduce some new gun reform laws. Black and white, it's a freedom issue. So the question becomes: Do you (as a government, bound by law to uphold such an inalienable right) uphold the right and seek to improve the moral and religious ethic of the people, or do you seek to take upon yourself the power to legislate human passions unbridled by morality and religion? For America, those are the only two choices that will offer any sort of solution to the issue of mass shootings. That's it. Keep freedom and promote virtue, or create a nanny state.

That's it boiled down, but there's certainly more involved. More issues that mingle with it. And there's likely an argument that could be made that we've crossed the Rubicon and we're just witnesses to the death throes of America and the West.
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Post by Thunktank »

tuttle wrote: 02 Jun 2022, 06:07
Thunktank wrote: 01 Jun 2022, 12:37 Tuttle, rabbit trail, yes perhaps. Not without good cause though. . .

You talk about core problems, which I agree is very important. This is why I bring up American relationships with guns and how that plays within our cultural norms and human perspectives. America clearly had a problem with mass shootings in the past couple of decades. I don’t believe it is merely an issue of guns or types of guns, or mental health in and of itself either. But I also believe mental health and thoughtful gun reform are part of the solution. As would be a change in culture itself. This includes “gun culture” too.

There are other countries with high levels of private gun ownership. Switzerland for example even has citizens with real “assault weapons” albeit with rules . They actually have a working and official regulated militia. Riflemanship is taught and valued. These other countries are among the least violent countries in the world despite the high level of gun ownership. It begs the question, what makes these countries different? Is there something we could learn from them? Specifically, I’m thinking about most Northern European countries, Canada and Australia. Some of these counties have had a mass shooting or two as well, but the continued rate of mass shootings isn’t anywhere near our own per capita.

I’m going to take a shot at it (pun intended). I think America has not only become less responsible individually, but also less responsible collectively and socially. We have also conflated freedom with those responsibilities to each other to the point that there is refusal to allow any regulations at all. Regulations themselves should support those individual and collective responsibilities and freedoms work within that framework. We have it largely figured out in some ways, but fail miserably in others.

I think what’s hard for me as an American to understand is how other countries prohibit gun purchases for self defense period. Maybe that’s part of the problem here, as that has become too important here. I don’t know. We need guns to defend ourselves from bad guys with guns! Our bad guys get guns easily, even when they aren’t connected to organized crime. Heck, any common thief in Texas (or just about any southern or mountain west state) can break into a few trucks and acquire a handgun without much trouble.

Just my .02
I don't necessarily want to get into a Switzerland/US gun policy back and forth, but one difference is that the Swiss require every able bodied male to join the army and it's mandated they own guns, at least during their time of service. My guess is that training every male, and every female that volunteers, goes a long way into shaping their 'gun culture'.

Beyond that, for countries that have a right to bear arms, I think it matters a great deal how that country believes such a right is derived. Is the right bestowed by the State or bestowed by something beyond the State? I don't know where Switzerland or other gun-rights countries stand, but the right to bear arms is recognized by the US, not bestowed. And like it or not, that's the context we must work with for good or ill. Any tinkering with that, regardless of the intent of the reasoning for the tinkering, must keep that context in consideration, for at some point we're no longer merely dealing with gun issues, but with authority issues. And boiled down, brass tacks, the second amendment is about freedom, not responsibility. It's no wonder our founders made statements such as:
John Adams wrote:But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation, while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candour, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in the rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. Because we have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
And so, the solution goes well beyond the need to introduce some new gun reform laws. Black and white, it's a freedom issue. So the question becomes: Do you (as a government, bound by law to uphold such an inalienable right) uphold the right and seek to improve the moral and religious ethic of the people, or do you seek to take upon yourself the power to legislate human passions unbridled by morality and religion? For America, those are the only two choices that will offer any sort of solution to the issue of mass shootings. That's it. Keep freedom and promote virtue, or create a nanny state.

That's it boiled down, but there's certainly more involved. More issues that mingle with it. And there's likely an argument that could be made that we've crossed the Rubicon and we're just witnesses to the death throes of America and the West.
Tuttle, I posted everything I did to bring up the moral responsibilities of citizens and governments and even brought up freedom. It was not designed to directly counter or support the 2nd Amendment. I’m sure you favor an originalist view of the constitutional judicial practice which I won’t get into now, as it really doesn’t matter for the conversation at hand. The fiasco of the modern courts is another matter.

I was sharing with you some of my concerns and questions about public safety and guns. I’m definitely in favor of freedom too, albeit, it falls within an ethical and moral framework. Freedom from restraint is only one view of what freedom is and it doesn’t necessarily address how that works within a society where everyone else wants to exercise freedom as well.

John Quincy Adams was basically correct in that our constitution requires a moral and “religious” culture, which in his day was understood a certain way and much of that remains to this day too, though certainly development in those same morals have taken place to be understood more broadly in some cases. A topic of another day. I’m convinced however that some of the least moral people around are also “religious.” Morals and ethics are not necessarily synonymous with religion, which itself may have very few moral commandments and can be rife with people behaving poorly even if their religion gives lots of good moral commandments!

Regardless, people are widely against kids getting shot at school on a regular basis. I can’t wrap my mind around any sort of ethical moral code of any kind that would suggest that such behavior be tolerated with inaction. Most folks know criminal gangs are going to kill each other no matter what we do what we can to control that. When and how are we going to do something of worth to control this sort of bad behavior? The only freedom I concerned about here is those teachers and kids getting shot and losing theirs.
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Post by coco »

Thunktank wrote: 02 Jun 2022, 13:21...Morals and ethics are not necessarily synonymous with religion, which itself may have very few moral commandments and can be rife with people behaving poorly even if their religion gives lots of good moral commandments!...
Yep.
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Post by FredS »

tuttle wrote: 02 Jun 2022, 06:07 . . . And so, the solution goes well beyond the need to introduce some new gun reform laws. Black and white, it's a freedom issue.
. . . That's it. Keep freedom and promote virtue, or create a nanny state.
That's it boiled down, but there's certainly more involved. More issues that mingle with it.
I shouldn't be shocked that you can condense this whole historically and socially nuanced issue down to freedom and virtue (Guns and God) vs a nanny state

At least there at the end you left a little wiggle room for more issues that mingle with it. But those issues are the heart of the matter. Free and virtuous men don't kill innocents. The government already does a million things trying to promote virtue but neither the president nor the pastor can force it upon anyone. The issue, then, is what to do about the free and non-virtuous man. I'd be OK with preemptively killing them at the schoolhouse door. But could we maybe do some things before that? Identify them. Surveil them. Arrest them. Imprison them. Hospitalize them. Treat them. Rescind their right to own firearms. Even if that right is granted by God Himself, I'd let the courts rescind/restrict it. These guys are almost always known as a threat by someone in their community. Keeping an eye on them wouldn't be that hard.

When you write "That's it. Keep freedom and promote virtue, or create a nanny state" you seem to be giving up and saying there's nothing - short of a miracle that turns all men's hearts toward God or at least towards virtue (which truly won't be found apart from Him) - that can be done short of creating a nanny state which regulates every breath we take. The non-virtuous man with a gun is the problem here.

If you really want to make it about Godliness or Godlessness, and you want to boil it down to black and white, maybe we should ask, "at the end of the day does He care more about us protecting innocents or about virtuous men owning guns?"
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Post by Thunktank »

“tuttle” wrote: I don't necessarily want to get into a Switzerland/US gun back and forth, but one difference is that the Swiss require every able bodied male to join the army and it's mandated they own guns, at least during their time of service. My guess is that training every male, and every female that volunteers, goes a long way into shaping their 'gun culture'.
One of the reasons I specifically brought up Switzerland is because they are a current living embodiment in many ways to the ideal our founders were after. They have a current and working regulated (trained) militia. Our national guard is the closest we still have, and historically they are an evolution of the specialist “minuteman” of New England. Who were specially set aside for specific militia purpose. Meanwhile our colonial and later state governments had broadly used and accepted means to call on the militia in defense of their state or colony from among all able bodied men. A system that is essentially defunct today.

I for one would like the US to look to our own past and look to countries like Switzerland today to revive the second Amendment more fully, but know full well it won’t happen. The powers that be and the population at large won’t go for it. Furthermore we have a huge professional military with the power to project globally with huge oceans on either side and Canada to our North and Mexico to our south. A conventional invasion against us on our own shores seems unlikely to most. What the heck is the militia going to do? Militants who claim militia status sometimes seem to look for a job at times, but that’s not quite what the militia was designed for.

Anyway, regardless as to whether Switzerland has a second Amendment codified or not. They are a free and democratic nation and armed, with rules and regulations that support those freedoms and democracy. They’re worth looking at IMO. American exceptionalism seems somewhat unwilling to see the greatness in other countries I think though.
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