ROE V WADE OVERRULED!

[Thunktank]

'zactly

Not necessarily. Of course you may be right that some think that, but the much bigger issue is whether a woman has the basic freedom of choice or not regardless of where she lives in this country. The conservative leaning crowd for the most part don’t. They also don’t understand privilege, that some poor women won’t believe they have a choice because they literally don’t believe they can get to a freedom of choice state to get the care they believe they need. Which goes to show the grave desperation they’re in. But I don’t believe the typical conservative leaner or for that matter the typical elitist liberal can even wrap their brains around those sorts of problems. I was rather shocked the first time I came across this. How can this be in the wealthiest country on earth?

I believe in freedom of choice with regulations and restrictions. How Roe ended up is much how the 2nd Amendment did in the courts. It became an “absolute” right without various considerations and virtually no restrictions for any reason.

I’m somewhat ambivalent toward the loss of Roe, but absolutely opposed to the why it has been over ruled. It should not be a states rights issue as to whether a woman has a right or not. Furthermore, the court has been ruling to roll back other freedoms like freedom of religion, unless of course one is Christian and wants to subject his faith on those not interested, then the court is your best friend.

For years I supported crisis pregnancy centers. I don’t trust them any more than I do planned parenthood anymore. Both organizations are two sides of the same coin. They are both special interests and organizations that don’t tell the whole truth in favor of their own ideology. America subsists in their polarities. Americans have difficulty finding the paradox between those polarized positions. The part that worries me the most though is that too many are looking to completely ban one freedom or another while defending their favorite freedoms without reservations or personal responsibilities.

I don't understand why you wouldn't trust the charity Care Centers. What stories have you heard?

They aren't run by liars who profit from the women and children in their care.

A concerned woman walks in. She gets a free pregnancy test and a free ultrasound. We listen to her fears and worries. We show her all the help that is available to meet those concerns, and we promise to support her for as long as it takes. We offer to help her even if she chooses abortion, and finds that she needs help dealing with the aftermath of that decision.

Lots of women walk out and we never see them again. We don't know if they chose life, or if they succumbed to pressure from boyfriends and employers and the fearsome sales tactics of the abortion profiteers. At least she knew that each woman really did have a real choice, and she wasn't trapped in the situation of having no other choice.

Sometimes a mother comes back with her baby and thank us for being there on that one day, when they were scared and under some pressure. Just knowing that there was someone ready to help if she needed it was enough confidence to push back against her boyfriend, and often enough they become a family instead of a tragedy.

The very last sentence says it all, and that’s just buy one little statement. I’ve been there, I’ve talked with the volunteers, I know who they are and what they’re there for. Providing care and choices is one thing. That’s perfectly all well and good. Framing those choices and helps is quite another. Not unlike some of games Planned Parenthood sometimes plays. You assume every abortion must be a “tragedy” and also assume that creating a family is always the right choice. PP isn’t the only ones playing on women’s emotions at a difficult time. You also assume in every case that someone a woman is with is to blame for a decision of abortion. Well guess what? Those intimate relationships she has, however noble or not are also her choice. Not yours. Help more, judge less.

[Thunktank]

. . . I completely agree that our country isn’t “healthy enough” to get together and live together in prosperity. I am absolutely horrified by what has happened over the last few years in particular. Our democratic freedoms and values are under great strain, most especially by the far right, from many folks like I see here on CPS. There’s some good reasons why I questioned that I belong here. . . .

You know what? I see exactly two - TWO - far right folks here. And you continually engage them in conversation of a subject on which you know you're in disagreement. I wonder then, since they are so few, and since you intentionally engage them, why you'd question whether you belong here. You can check out of this thread or this virtual group over this, but realize you'll be perpetuating the very divisiveness that "horrifies" you.

This is not what horrifies me. Let me be clear. What horrifies me is that extremists on both wings, but most especially on the right in recent decades don’t even know what America is. They also have become willfully ignorant of objective reality far too much. Over and over and over again they cannot deal with the object facts of so many issues. Couple that with their willingness to forgo democratic principles because they believe they’re right and what you end up with is a president Trump backed by a party to this day who literally tried to overturn an election. I saw him do it. I saw him plan to do it and I see a lot of Republicans lacking the courage to call it what it is because so many Republicans actually believe the non sense, because so many Republicans maintain their incomplete thoughts on yet another matter.

I believe there are at least four extremists here, btw. But I won’t be mentioning names. I don’t often engage them initially, they do most of the initial contact with me. I simply respond, and I don’t often even do that. But here’s the thing. A lot of people only want to be somewhere where people generally agree with them. So pardon me if I suspect the same may be true here. Especially since I know a few of our past friends have absolutely been asked to go elsewhere by some members.

My emoji’s are in most cases a way to keep things lite. And yes, a bit tongue in cheek at times.

[Thunktank]

You may believe in any God you wish, but you may not force it upon others.

We don't live in a neutral world. No culture is neutral. None.

There used to be a sense of neutrality, but that was because Christianity was the foundation upon what was and wasn't tolerated in society, which meant there was no neutrality then either. The statement you made above only works, ironically, in a thoroughly Christian society that allows for a toleration. The statement you made is a moral statement based off of love and respect for others. Who taught you that? That notion derived from where?

A god will be imposed upon others. Indoctrination, permissibles, taboos, worship. Look around. Our current culture wants to believe that it's been unshackled from the chain of a morally oppressive Christian God, but no unshackling has occurred. They've just swapped the chains (if we insist on that language) of one god for another. It is a rebellion and a rejection of Christianity, but not a rejection of subjugation to a Power. No one kicked a Higher Power out of the Schools or the State. They just switched teams.

There is a reason why you don't see school/community officials actively seeking to organize Bible studies for children in schools and libraries or displaying a cross on every door and window, but you do see them actively organizing Drag Queen Story Hour for kids in those places.

What if after the SCOTUS decided Dobbs Christian imagery was projected onto the White House? Or after a state passed legislation to make abortion illegal they superimposed a cross on their iconic architecture? Would people interpret that as the State celebrating a victory in the name of their God?

What's the difference?

You think I was suggesting a neutral position? Oh no, not at all! I’m just suggesting that folks act like Americans ought to act. That Americans learn to be a more perfect Union that respects the rights and freedoms of others and be responsible with those freedoms.

You and I do disagree, substantially. But you’re the one around here more than anyone else bringing up armed violence.

Let me break this down for you. In America we learned more and more for a long time in basic liberal freedoms that we talk things through. We may not always agree and sometimes we make laws and do things others don’t like. But each person has certain rights. Some of those rights are freedom of religion, or no religion at all. We have many other rights and freedoms to, none are absolute, but we try to maximize them and provide a culture where we use other means to bring change and aloe others their freedoms.

Im not asking you to be neutral on religion. But if your religion insists that everyone else believe exactly as you do and then legislate it because you are unable or unwilling to accept the liberties and rights of others, then you are being a civil problem. After all, several colonies were created specifically so that outliers in religious belief could practice their religion in peace apart from the Crown’s laws in Europe at that time. But now we have the outliers, like yourself insisting that we obey your version of Deity seemingly unaware that other Americans may have some different opinions and beliefs too. We learned, and more fully over time how to respect different people and beliefs and maximize their liberties as much as possible. So now sometimes we shine on capital buildings in celebration of people’s rights and freedoms on a civil plane. We also often still use prayers before many civil activities we hope in ways that respect everyone.

Force of arms cannot change the minds citizens. It can at most only silence them. I do not in any way advocate you be silenced unless your words are designed to cause pain to others. Threatening violence and war may do that. Not ok.

Now abortion politics is admittedly, and I for one know full well, an impasse in basic human rights theory. I completely understand how you see and must act upon it being “murder” according to your beliefs. You must understand that there are also legitimate reasons why some don’t believe the unborn can or should have the same exact rights and legal personhood as the breathing. Both sides have beliefs made by a series of rational and assumptions about reality.

I think you’re being a damn fool in thinking that beating war drums in the name of your deity because you believe you are on God’s side, or daring folks on the others side to beat theirs has anything to do with the American values of a more perfect Union. I promise you, civil war isn’t pro life.

Use your words and your brain to convince me of your opinion. You don’t have the authority to make me agree with you. I would argue strongly that you should be pro-life as you wish as long as you keep your laws off a woman’s body and her right as a woman to reproduce or not. There are many natural and rational reasons why a pregnancy doesn’t take. That’s the best you can do within the limits we all have within a society of impasse. Trust me, in my perfect world I would make all sorts of laws against certain people and behaviors, but I can’t do that and it wouldn’t work even if I had all the power in world! That’s the pragmatic realty, when your religion can’t be allowed to force its every specific belief of proper behavior on others. Use your wit, not force of arms. There is still plenty of moral laws we do agree on. We all agree that killing the born is murder!

[Hugo Drax]

Who's winning?

[Del]

Who's winning?

Mothers and children!

[Del]

I don't think our country is healthy enough to achieve either at the moment. It'll probably be decided in some other, likely more horrible You may believe in any God you wish, but you may not force it upon others.

...riiight. And likewise, you can believe that murder and rape are sinful if you want to, but you can't force it upon others. If you don't like murder and rape, then don't commit murder and rape. The Bible says that murder is sinful, therefore criminalizing murder is forcing religion upon people.

And honestly, if there's a case to me made it should be that:

"You may believe people shouldn't force their God upon others if you wish, but you may not force your belief upon others that people may not force their beliefs upon others".

I think that's a much more logically-consistent axiom myself.

The progressive side suffers from an utter lack of philosophical foundation. They reject religion, but they don't have anything else on which to base any of their notions about "rights."

They want legal drugs and legal prostitution and legal abortion, under claims of "bodily autonomy." They say, "I will do whatever I want with my body," which means, "I will do whatever I want, and no one else matters."

Natural rights flow from natural duties. A man has a natural duty to provide for this family, and thus a laborer has a natural right to a fair wage. And so the Law of Moses, Jesus, Paul, the Catholic Church and the US Congress all speak to secure our natural rights to dignified labor and fair wages.

A mother has a natural duty to care for her children. Our laws and welfare and charity should all seek to help her to care for her children when she (and her husband, if he is present) are unable to provide for their children.

Some pro-abortion advocates take the position that abortion is one of many responsible choices a mother might take to responsible parenting of her children. I respect this argument, because it is one of the few instances when the abortion lobby admits that a mother has a duty to responsible care for her children.

But the public haven't bought it. Nobody accepts that killing a child is a responsible way to care for a child. So the abortion rallies fall back into chanting "My body! My choice!" Because their only hope is to utterly ignore the child, and to focus on their body-things.

[jmg]

You assume every abortion must be a “tragedy”

Yes.

[Del]

The very last sentence says it all, and that’s just buy one little statement. I’ve been there, I’ve talked with the volunteers, I know who they are and what they’re there for. Providing care and choices is one thing. That’s perfectly all well and good. Framing those choices and helps is quite another. Not unlike some of games Planned Parenthood sometimes plays. You assume every abortion must be a “tragedy” and also assume that creating a family is always the right choice. PP isn’t the only ones playing on women’s emotions at a difficult time. You also assume in every case that someone a woman is with is to blame for a decision of abortion. Well guess what? Those intimate relationships she has, however noble or not are also her choice. Not yours. Help more, judge less.

I'll own this. Yes, every abortion is a tragedy.... the child is dead, and the mother is scarred, and our culture demands that she must bear her suffering in silence for the rest of her life (or choose to loudly wear her shame on her sleeve). Our society should discourage abortion.

And the natural, best environment for raising a child is with her father and mother together at home, as natural or adoptive parents.

But I still think you have the wrong idea about Care Centers. They are not predatory institutions who trick a mother into keeping her child, looking make a quick buck.

You give women too little credit for their own agency. A woman walks into a Care Center because she wants to. She knows where she is going, and why.

She wants to keep her child, and she needs some type of help. Or she is desperate and scared and doesn't know what to do, and she wants to hear what sort of support the pro-life charity has to offer.

The abortion advocates hate charity Care Centers, because they offer women a real choice. We strive to be the best choice -- offering multi-dimensional, personalized, long-term support at no cost.

Abortion zealots are terrorizing Care Centers because they don't want women to have choices. Let that sink in.

[Thunktank]

You folks deliberately misunderstand others don’t you? Go ahead. Go ahead and assume giving birth to every pregnancy is the best choice in every case. Go ahead and determine that YOU men have the right answers for every woman every time. But do NOT believe that I think abortion is intrinsically “good.” I do not. Do NOT assume (Del) that there isn’t philosophy behind my beliefs. I assure you, I have philosophy behind me, ethics behind me, beliefs and values of life behind me too. You fundamentally make different assumptions that lead you to different beliefs in your philosophies where they sometimes lead to different conclusions than mine. I think some of your philosophies are lacking too. And I know what your thinking of me. I know.

You fellas create “tragedies” in the hearts and minds of many women on this topic far beyond what many women themselves need to feel or would feel on their own. Many, many women stand by their decision to end a pregnancy. Many of those same women go on to have children later and under better circumstances and become good mothers and wives. You assume every woman should feel that tragedy you believe exists in every abortion. Own that.

You seem ignore the feelings that many have when they feel compelled to carry a pregnancy to birth, to give up for adoption perhaps and the very real pain that causes many women. The emotional destruction it may cause her. And while it may often be noble for women to choose that, and good for them, you and I NO RIGHT to make that choice for her. None, zilch and nada. Abortion has a long, long history in the real world between your black and white world of transcendence and hell or the philosophically simplistic belief of full human life with full legal rights and no becoming at all.

I have one wife of over 20 years. My wife and I have two productive children. It is good when people live a life where abortion doesn’t even need to be considered. I’ve enjoyed that life. Not everyone has that life. We do not need to adopt theologies or philosophies that assume a fetus in it’s early stages has the same equality to the woman bearing it. That’s your choice to believe, but it isn’t for a lot of people. That doesn’t mean I don’t find the unborn worthless either. So don’t default to that black and white distortion either, please.

[Thunktank]

I don't think our country is healthy enough to achieve either at the moment. It'll probably be decided in some other, likely more horrible You may believe in any God you wish, but you may not force it upon others.

...riiight. And likewise, you can believe that murder and rape are sinful if you want to, but you can't force it upon others. If you don't like murder and rape, then don't commit murder and rape. The Bible says that murder is sinful, therefore criminalizing murder is forcing religion upon people.

And honestly, if there's a case to me made it should be that:

"You may believe people shouldn't force their God upon others if you wish, but you may not force your belief upon others that people may not force their beliefs upon others".

I think that's a much more logically-consistent axiom myself.

May I ask what user name you went by on the old site? It helps me to know how to relate to your posts, or else I will have to get to know you all over again.

To be sure, murder is wrong and against the law as it should be. Abortion isn’t assumed to be murder by many and for a range of reasons. This has been the case almost universally since the dawn of humanity. Of course there has been various other legal and ethical issues concerning abortion from place to place for one reason or another. It was some Christians, quite a while after the time of Christ that solidified the belief that abortion was “murder.”