ROE V WADE OVERRULED!
Posted: 04 Jul 2022, 17:34
May I ask what user name you went by on the old site?
A forum for Wosbald to spam Crux articles
https://christianpipesmokers.org/
My point was that the America you are breaking down for me is an America within the context of a Christian worldview. Remove the Christian worldview and you are unable to say things like "You may believe in any God you wish, but you may not force it upon others."Thunktank wrote: ↑01 Jul 2022, 11:51 You think I was suggesting a neutral position? Oh no, not at all! I’m just suggesting that folks act like Americans ought to act. That Americans learn to be a more perfect Union that respects the rights and freedoms of others and be responsible with those freedoms.
You and I do disagree, substantially. But you’re the one around here more than anyone else bringing up armed violence.
Let me break this down for you. In America we learned more and more for a long time in basic liberal freedoms that we talk things through. We may not always agree and sometimes we make laws and do things others don’t like. But each person has certain rights. Some of those rights are freedom of religion, or no religion at all. We have many other rights and freedoms to, none are absolute, but we try to maximize them and provide a culture where we use other means to bring change and aloe others their freedoms.
Note all of the bolded red above (don't forget to scroll down). That's you claiming that I am bringing up armed violence, threatening violence and war, beating war drums in the name of God and daring others to do so, etc. I deny such claims and ask you to please retract them. When I did bring up civil war it was out of a fearful concern for this country. There were no threats. Nowhere have I advocated or desired armed conflict. No threats of war or violence to you or anyone who disagrees with me. If you are going to make such ridiculous accusations, bring the receipts.Thunktank wrote: ↑01 Jul 2022, 11:51 Im not asking you to be neutral on religion. But if your religion insists that everyone else believe exactly as you do and then legislate it because you are unable or unwilling to accept the liberties and rights of others, then you are being a civil problem. After all, several colonies were created specifically so that outliers in religious belief could practice their religion in peace apart from the Crown’s laws in Europe at that time. But now we have the outliers, like yourself insisting that we obey your version of Deity seemingly unaware that other Americans may have some different opinions and beliefs too. We learned, and more fully over time how to respect different people and beliefs and maximize their liberties as much as possible. So now sometimes we shine on capital buildings in celebration of people’s rights and freedoms on a civil plane. We also often still use prayers before many civil activities we hope in ways that respect everyone.
Force of arms cannot change the minds citizens. It can at most only silence them. I do not in any way advocate you be silenced unless your words are designed to cause pain to others. Threatening violence and war may do that. Not ok.
Now abortion politics is admittedly, and I for one know full well, an impasse in basic human rights theory. I completely understand how you see and must act upon it being “murder” according to your beliefs. You must understand that there are also legitimate reasons why some don’t believe the unborn can or should have the same exact rights and legal personhood as the breathing. Both sides have beliefs made by a series of rational and assumptions about reality.
I think you’re being a damn fool in thinking that beating war drums in the name of your deity because you believe you are on God’s side, or daring folks on the others side to beat theirs has anything to do with the American values of a more perfect Union. I promise you, civil war isn’t pro life.
Use your words and your brain to convince me of your opinion. You don’t have the authority to make me agree with you. I would argue strongly that you should be pro-life as you wish as long as you keep your laws off a woman’s body and her right as a woman to reproduce or not. There are many natural and rational reasons why a pregnancy doesn’t take. That’s the best you can do within the limits we all have within a society of impasse. Trust me, in my perfect world I would make all sorts of laws against certain people and behaviors, but I can’t do that and it wouldn’t work even if I had all the power in world! That’s the pragmatic realty, when your religion can’t be allowed to force its every specific belief of proper behavior on others. Use your wit, not force of arms. There is still plenty of moral laws we do agree on. We all agree that killing the born is murder!
When I posted that, I was thinking more along the lines of legal terms of defamation or inciting violence. It came out very badly and accusatory on my end and I shouldn’t have said it like that. It was a rushed response and I know I shouldn’t rush responses. I can see your point. I retract my statements about your motives. I just don’t understand another post you have made I guess. I need to gather that together and have you clarify it for me. You made one statement, and I must find it, that you yourself stated how the government classifies you a certain way. Which begged the question for me. But again, I must search that post and not jump to conclusions.“tuttle” wrote:
And maybe--while you're in the midst of falsely accusing that others shouldn't advocate violence--you shouldn't make threats yourself. Seems hypocritical. Saying you don't advocate me being silenced unless my words cause pain? What kind of disconnect do you have in your brain? That one statement is more threatening than anything I've ever said around here. And I wouldn't have even mentioned it but the contrast was so freaking hypocritical it couldn't go unmentioned.
Because I can go back and read what I wrote to you and read again how you've responded, it makes me wonder if you are either ideologically bound to not engage with me or my actual argument or that you have a mental condition. I suspect the former because I can recall years of reasonable dialogue with you. I can never recall the type of ludicrous accusation-filed steaming pile of a response like you just gave me above.
I suspect you're fighting a cardboard caricature of me, one that looks a lot like Trump. I'm afraid he broke you.
As for Trump breaking me, well it looks like he got most of the Republican Party to at least turn a blind eye to his own incitement. My suspicions are not entirely unfounded. But to be clear, I will not accuse you personally of violence. You have made it clear that you don’t wish that. We can delete those posts entirely if you wish. I do not wish to defame you and no threat meant or intended at all, to be sure. I hope that is clear now.tuttle wrote: ↑07 Jun 2022, 06:19This assessment is correct. All you have to do to be considered a "conservative" today is to hold the positions Joe Biden held 10 years ago.FredS wrote: ↑06 Jun 2022, 15:08 Yes, that's it exactly. But notice, in Musk's diagram, that the 'conservative' is depicted further from center in 2021 than in 2012 or 2008. I think Trump was too far right, and I think Trump voters/supporters (take you and the Tuttles for instance) are too far right. You didn't move right necessarily, but you stayed planted where you were 20 years ago while the rest of the Republican party has moved left which is pushing the center further away from you. It's getting lonely out there isn't it?
Though I would quibble about being "too far right" it is nonetheless true that according to today's spectrum I'm considered to be just to the left of al Qaeda. According to Biden's DOJ and Homeland security I'm a domestic extremist.
I've brought this up a handful of times in the last forum. I think the only thing I really praised Obama policy-wise for was his environmental/wildlife stuff and criticized Trump for overturning some of it. That said, conservatives really missed by leaving every environmental issue to the left. They don't and won't make conservative environmental scientists in the schools anymore. Thus making a cohort of radical leftists the "experts" in environmental issues. And even now, when you hear a Republican try to enter the environmental fray with policy, it's on the left's terms and using their narrative, which shows how absolute their hold on it is (and again how conservatives only conserve the latest liberal victories). But I'm getting to far afield for the thread.
the Left have been doing pretty much all of actual violence --Antifa, BLM, Jane's Revenge -- and even worse, this has been incited and egged on by elected Democrats.tuttle wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 05:57 That's you claiming that I am bringing up armed violence, threatening violence and war, beating war drums in the name of God and daring others to do so, etc. I deny such claims and ask you to please retract them. When I did bring up civil war it was out of a fearful concern for this country.
Thunk I really do appreciate the response. I've made rushed comments before and realized I said a thing or two that I'd probably had not said if I thought twice about it.Thunktank wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 09:57When I posted that, I was thinking more along the lines of legal terms of defamation or inciting violence. It came out very badly and accusatory on my end and I shouldn’t have said it like that. It was a rushed response and I know I shouldn’t rush responses. I can see your point. I retract my statements about your motives. I just don’t understand another post you have made I guess. I need to gather that together and have you clarify it for me. You made one statement, and I must find it, that you yourself stated how the government classifies you a certain way. Which begged the question for me. But again, I must search that post and not jump to conclusions.“tuttle” wrote:
And maybe--while you're in the midst of falsely accusing that others shouldn't advocate violence--you shouldn't make threats yourself. Seems hypocritical. Saying you don't advocate me being silenced unless my words cause pain? What kind of disconnect do you have in your brain? That one statement is more threatening than anything I've ever said around here. And I wouldn't have even mentioned it but the contrast was so freaking hypocritical it couldn't go unmentioned.
Because I can go back and read what I wrote to you and read again how you've responded, it makes me wonder if you are either ideologically bound to not engage with me or my actual argument or that you have a mental condition. I suspect the former because I can recall years of reasonable dialogue with you. I can never recall the type of ludicrous accusation-filed steaming pile of a response like you just gave me above.
I suspect you're fighting a cardboard caricature of me, one that looks a lot like Trump. I'm afraid he broke you.
Ah, here it is:
As for Trump breaking me, well it looks like he got most of the Republican Party to at least turn a blind eye to his own incitement. My suspicions are not entirely unfounded. But to be clear, I will not accuse you personally of violence. You have made it clear that you don’t wish that. We can delete those posts entirely if you wish. I do not wish to defame you and no threat meant or intended at all, to be sure. I hope that is clear now.tuttle wrote: ↑07 Jun 2022, 06:19
This assessment is correct. All you have to do to be considered a "conservative" today is to hold the positions Joe Biden held 10 years ago.
Though I would quibble about being "too far right" it is nonetheless true that according to today's spectrum I'm considered to be just to the left of al Qaeda. According to Biden's DOJ and Homeland security I'm a domestic extremist.
I've brought this up a handful of times in the last forum. I think the only thing I really praised Obama policy-wise for was his environmental/wildlife stuff and criticized Trump for overturning some of it. That said, conservatives really missed by leaving every environmental issue to the left. They don't and won't make conservative environmental scientists in the schools anymore. Thus making a cohort of radical leftists the "experts" in environmental issues. And even now, when you hear a Republican try to enter the environmental fray with policy, it's on the left's terms and using their narrative, which shows how absolute their hold on it is (and again how conservatives only conserve the latest liberal victories). But I'm getting to far afield for the thread.