An idea about population planning

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Del
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An idea about population planning

Post by Del »

Troubadour wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 21:57
Del wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 20:09 Take it from me (as I am a great expert): Long posts don't mean that you have a valid point.

You think that casual sex is good and children are bad -- and you have a point, if your point is that old adolescents make bad parents.
I don't totally disagree with you. I don't see much to gain from purposely perpetuation immaturity as a a whole person.

I just think that a person with no income or ability to support children fathering 40 kids because society seems to think that procreation is a "right" causes more social harm than a couple having casual sex which doesn't result in childbirth. Do you disagree?
I don't think we should forcefully sterilize every young person because one guy got 40-some women pregnant.

Just as we shouldn't ban guns from all the law-abiding citizens just because there are a bunch of lawless gang-bangers in one part of the city.

If your concern is that young people are tempted to promiscuity and profligate breeding, our solution must be a return to a culture of teaching young people to resist the temptation and to mature in virtue.

We can't a fix a sick culture with government policies, even with hypothetical and science-fiction technology. If we want prosperous and happy society, we need a virtuous people.

Virtuous people:
- do all the work,
- contribute all of the charity, and
- practice self-control that keeps them from using other people and protects them from being abused.
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Post by FredS »

It may be time to start voting people off.

Not because I disagree with what Troubadour writes, but because they bring nothing of value to the community, and, in fact, in this thread have attacked the beliefs and intellect of other members. And not in the good natured "Fred you ignorant slut" slut manner, but in the "Oh please, you aren't even literate enough to properly understand the Bible (or rather, your poor and limited conception of it)" manner.
3 months ago FredS wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 09:42 Do you know who s/he is? Troubadour was TheSheperd on the old site. Many of their views - at least as presented on the forums - are well outside what most would consider a Christian worldview. This is a good place to explore those ideas though - just don't be shocked when s/he starts revealing more as they become comfortable bringing up what might be sensitive questions.
It's time to end it. Or at least pause it.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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An idea about population planning

Post by Del »

"A new philosophy generally means in practice the praise of some old vice."
-- GK Chesterton


That was a hunnert years ago, when all of this "free love" hype was already getting old and obviously not working well for its followers.

Birth control & eugenics were all the rage among enlightened smart people then. Margaret Sanger, Ku Klux Klan, Adolf Hitler... big fans. Can't have those unfit persons having any more kids, you see.
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Post by Biff »

The more the words, the less the meaning.
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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Post by Del »

Troubadour wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 21:54
Biff wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 21:24 The more the words, the less the meaning.
Yeah, but how many is "too many"? I'm not sure where the fine-line is.
Try a ratio of making one clear point per one post.

I know quite a bit more about the customs and cultures of antiquity than you do,* and yet I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.

Your thesis appears to be thus:
1) All people should be free to have sexual relations with whomever they wish, unrestrained by any societal controls (except perhaps for the fad virtue of consent).
2) No people should be allowed to conceive children, except by special license by government experts.

You offer no persuasive reasons for this weird juxtaposition of licentiousness and tyranny. You simply feel like these would be suitable for a happy society. So you throw out assertions without any persuasive arguments.

I say that this sounds exactly like the dystopian novel Brave New World. I, for one, don't want to live in such a world. I wouldn't with that on anyone.


* That's not an insult. It's just that I've actually studied and read the ancients more than most people have. It is apparent that you have not. You would enjoy them, if you did. I recommend starting with Boethius, The Consolation of Philosophy. Easy to read, and you don't have to have any special background to understand him.

Boethius is a very good friend to have.
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An idea about population planning

Post by tuttle »

Troubadour wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 15:19
tuttle wrote: 09 Sep 2022, 05:14 Why are all your threads anti-human?
Well, why is God anti-human? God believes that human nature is tainted, and that childbirth has been a frequent source of suffering since the Fall of Man. The apostle Paul was so strongly against the suffering caused by tainted procreation that he even suggested that people don't marry at all unless they felt they absolutely couldn't do without it - and no, he wasn't "anti-sex" - he was simply "anti-procreation" or its often-unintended by product.

Why has Christianity abandoned the "pro-human" polygamy of the Old Testament in favor of the "anti-human monogamy" which was hinted at in Eden and revived after the New Testament? A man such as Solomon with 700 wives and concubines can father many more children than a man confined to only one wife? With monogamy being preferred because it's more about "quality" of marriage and raising children, while polygamy is more just about "quantity".

Why does contemporary society look down on men like this - who've allegedly fathered more than 40 children despite having no means of supporting any of them and apparently has no interest in using protection or having a vasectomy'? How "anti-human" of them.

All of your issues would resolve themselves if you recognize that God is righteous and you are not.

Submit to God and you'll be free.
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An idea about population planning

Post by tuttle »

Troubadour wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 12:09
Biff wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 21:24 The more the words, the less the meaning.
Alright, I'll try to condense it.

In short, the story of Eden reveals that the ideal conditions for "being fruitful and multiplying" were lost due to the folly of man.

Since at least then, procreation in unideal circumstance has been responsible for the suffering of mankind, leading to abject poverty and savagery.

If mankind recognized procreation as the root of evil and suffering and created ideal circumstances for it to occur, this would be the first step toward utopian realization - or the re-unification of all mankind in a world without nations, borders and boundaries, without poverty, famine, war, strife, or suffering - akin to a new Heaven and a new Earth, in which only goodness, truth, and beauty remains to be actualized by all men and women.
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FredS votes YEA :handgestures-thumbupleft:
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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Post by Del »

Troubadour wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 11:50
Del wrote: 11 Sep 2022, 16:34 Try a ratio of making one clear point per one post.

I know quite a bit more about the customs and cultures of antiquity than you do, and yet I can't make sense of what you are trying to say.
You say that, but somehow something as obvious as the forms of eugenics, population control, and birth control which have been around since pre-antiquity to the present day are things you claim to have had a blind eye to.
Eugenics never existed before Charles Darwin, d. 1882. There were genocides committed against peoples and cultures whom the conquerorss didn't like, but there wasn't this idea that one race or group could be "genetically inferior." There were just conquerors and conquered peoples. The idea that humanity could be improved by "selective breeding" is an entirely modern idea.

The aristocracies of old avoided marrying "commoners" because of social caste systems, not some faith in genetic superiority.

Can you think of a pre-Darwin example of eugenics? I can't.

Population control, as an act of government policy, was invented by Thomas Malthus, d. 1834. The key is government controller deciding who should have children and how many.

Can you think of a government policy that deigned to "control population" prior to the 1800's? I can only think of just one; Pharoah of Egypt in the Exodus story. As far as I know, this is a unique event in history. See below....

Birth Control and Infanticide are ancient evils, as you say. Ancient religions among Canaanite people and the empire of Carthage worshipped Molech, and a priestly caste had something to do with that. But mostly, infanticide was an authentic patriarchy such as practiced in ancient Rome. I trust you are familiar with the custom.

Even in old Carthage, the aristocratic class sacrificed the children of their slaves for the sake of good crops, etc., and to keep their slave-staff down to a manageable number of mouths to feed. The household patriarch decided which children to sacrifice -- not the priests or the rulers.

The important thing to realize here is that infanticide is an ancient evil, but it was commonly practiced by households -- not by governments. When governments get into the business of family planning and population control, that is tyranny. China is the obvious example of violating human rights. But America's hands are dirty too, such as richly funding Title X and Planned Parenthood to the ruin of American urban culture and especially Black families.

Your sci-fi proposal that everyone should be temporarily sterilized until they prove themselves worthy (as judged by a government eugenics experts) is worse than China's one-child policy -- where a woman was still allowed to choose her own spouse and have her own child in her own time before government tyrants asserted control over her life.
====================================

Having said all that, there is one glaring example recorded in ancient history of "population control": when Pharaoh of Egypt proposed to keep his Hebrew slaves while reducing their numbers -- by killing all their newborn male children for a while.

Can we agree that this nuance of "population control" was just layered upon the ancient evils of despotic tyranny, slavery, genocide, and infanticide? Because Pharaoh wasn't concerned about overpopulation.... he just wanted to avoid a slave revolt.

I mean to establish that eugenics and population control were not common practice in the ancient world.

Such a thing as "population control" did not appear in the history of government policy until the 20th century. (Unless you can provide some examples that I am not aware of.)
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Post by tuttle »

Troubadour wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 13:50
tuttle wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 05:31 All of your issues would resolve themselves if you recognize that God is righteous and you are not.

Submit to God and you'll be free.
Your false and heathen "god" is nothing more than a demon or symptom of untreated madness which you suffer from - the same vein of tyrannical, worldly, and bloodthirsty devil as embraced by the Philistines and their kin - whose head should be severed by the sword of Christ and placed on public display to warn the other heathens and savages of their folly. And the fraudulant teachings you falsely attribute to god are nothing more than the corruption of popular folly and distortions by money-hungry charlatans who modify their teachings solely based on what they believe will earn them money from the fools, of whom it is soon parted.

Even when passages from the Bible are clearly stated which contradict your worldy and heathen teachings you continue to hold fast in the embrace of your own demonology rather than the light of God.

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1%20Cor ... 7/type/kjv

The apostle Paul made it clear that it was better for people not to have children unless they felt sure they had to, because he, like God, understood this to be a source of suffering since the Fall of Man. Sadly his sublime words have been lost and corrupted over the years due to the heresies and attachments of the worldly and the demonic which rules over them and their impenetrable minds.

I am righteous by the virtue of residing in the light - you are confined to the darkness which, for want of light, will continue to consume you for eternity after eternity with nothing left but your on incendiary passions to immolate in - unless proper repentance, assuming that such isn't already beyond you, occurs.
Confess that Jesus is Lord, and God has raised Him from the dead.
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