Faith in the news

For the thinkers, theologians, philospophers.
Post Reply
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

FredS wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 12:20 But really . . .

What was His purpose for delivering the Christ to a poor, displaced, family? The One that all history has looked to - both before and after that birth in a barn. Why do it in that exact fashion? If it's simply because it was foretold, then why was it foretold?
Good points, FredS
Why is it assumed that Joseph's little family was deep in poverty?
Joseph probably wasn't wealthy, but he could afford to take care of his family after tithing, he could afford his carpenter's tools, he could afford journeys to Jerusalem and he could afford a donkey to travel to Bethlehem to pay his taxes.
He could also have afforded a room at the Inn, but the Inn didn't have a room to rent.
Jesus wasn't born in a stable because Joseph didn't have the dough for a room (get it? Bethlehem---dough? ;) )
Joseph was a carpenter---a very valuable trade at the time, and Mary's family was well connected through her Cousin Martha who was married to a rabbi who took turns being responsible for the Temple.
That's not the same as being a pin setter at a bowling alley. Not even close.
The Holy Family was displaced because the government was murdering the children in the province.
They weren't looking for a free $600/night midtown Manhattan hotel room and a cell phone.
Did they assume the Egyptian culture while in Egypt?
I don't know---those commercials certainly don't tell us.
We're only getting a part of the elephant, the part that supports a particular narrative.

The only migrations the Bible which God appears to support (and I'm not a Bible scholar) are the migrations of Jews. OTOH, those that threaten to invade Israel are dealt with impunity unless it is otherwise willed by God.
And even then it's temporary.
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2725
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 232 times
Been thanked: 372 times

Faith in the news

Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 06:10 I'm with Wos -
Of course there are complications and things are messy out here in the real world, but if we keep our eyes on the ideal - that God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them - then we have a better chance of working through the messy details.

Desmond Tutu told us how to eat that elephant. One bite at a time.

We know generally what we need to do at our southern border. Hire 10,000 more immigration officials. Or 50,000. Whatever. Station them in Mexico. Process 10,000 immigrants every day. Let them in legally or send them packing. The 'good' migrants will work through the system quickly and safely. The 'bad' ones will sneak through the desert and, since they will be much fewer in number, they'll be easier to pick up. Build a few new prisons in Mexico to put the bad actors in. Boom - ten, twenty, fifty, or a hundred billion dollars, and the problem is solved in a few years.
Something like that. Anything like that.

We never needed 87,000 new IRS agents.
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Del wrote: 01 Feb 2023, 14:40

We never needed 87,000 new IRS agents.
B-but they'd all get get electric government vehicles to drive.
This'll make Greta sad.
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 01 Feb 2023, 14:16[…]

The Holy Family was displaced because the government was murdering the children in the province.
They weren't looking for a free $600/night midtown Manhattan hotel room and a cell phone.
Did they assume the Egyptian culture while in Egypt?
I don't know---those commercials certainly don't tell us.
We're only getting a part of the elephant, the part that supports a particular narrative.

The only migrations the Bible which God appears to support (and I'm not a Bible scholar) are the migrations of Jews. OTOH, those that threaten to invade Israel are dealt with impunity unless it is otherwise willed by God.
And even then it's temporary.
Isn't people standing on their Universal Human Rights something which is, itself, willed by God? Something which is Naturally or Ordinarily willed by God (as contrasted with something which is Supernaturally or Extraordinarily willed by God)?

Seems to me that if God has already willed people to have Rights according to Nature, he shouldn't have to will it again in specific cases (although he's free to do so, of course) on top of that in order to put a-cherry-on-top.

Image


Image
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 08:48 +JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 01 Feb 2023, 14:16[…]

The Holy Family was displaced because the government was murdering the children in the province.
They weren't looking for a free $600/night midtown Manhattan hotel room and a cell phone.
Did they assume the Egyptian culture while in Egypt?
I don't know---those commercials certainly don't tell us.
We're only getting a part of the elephant, the part that supports a particular narrative.

The only migrations the Bible which God appears to support (and I'm not a Bible scholar) are the migrations of Jews. OTOH, those that threaten to invade Israel are dealt with impunity unless it is otherwise willed by God.
And even then it's temporary.
Isn't people standing on their Universal Human Rights something which is, itself, willed by God? Something which is Naturally or Ordinarily willed by God (as contrasted with something which is Supernaturally or Extraordinarily willed by God)?

Seems to me that if God has already willed people to have Rights according to Nature, he shouldn't have to will it again in specific cases (although he's free to do so, of course) on top of that in order to put a-cherry-on-top.

Image
I don't know.
There is certainly a precedent in the Natural Law for migration as being irresistible, however in the Bible there are examples of migration being both pleasing and repugnant to God.
Examples of what is pleasing supports political asylum scenarios(the flight into Egypt, Moses leading the Jews into Israel, The diaspora, etc...)
while examples of what is repugnant have to do with foreigners polluting Israel with practices displeasing to the God.
To wrap all migration in the blanket of a Universal Human Rights then, is like putting a straw hat on an elephant---it ignores the rest of the creature.
I seriously doubt God ignores his creatures no matter what theologians decide are Universal Human Rights.
Last edited by Hovannes on 03 Feb 2023, 09:34, edited 1 time in total.
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

User avatar
FredS
A Rotten Mexican Woman
A Rotten Mexican Woman
Posts: 1687
Joined: 08 Apr 2022, 06:05
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 465 times

Faith in the news

Post by FredS »

Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 09:32 What's going on my my diocese:
https://kmph.com/newsletter/new-3200-se ... lex-chavez#
That's a cool article.

“Come in for the artwork, stay for Jesus,” Bishop Brennan says. . .
“Beauty transcends. Beauty is God. Beauty allows us to discover that love,” Fr. Chavez said. “In this little city of Visalia, we have our own Vatican.”

I often say similar things to those who complain about the money spent to build and maintain beautiful places. Beautiful church buildings, beautiful lawns in beautiful parks, beautiful bridges, beautiful river walks, beautiful public gardens, beautiful lampposts downtown, whatever. We can have beautiful things and care for those in need. Beautiful places bring people together, encourage community, and perhaps even open some to God.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 09:29
Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 08:48 Isn't people standing on their Universal Human Rights something which is, itself, willed by God? Something which is Naturally or Ordinarily willed by God (as contrasted with something which is Supernaturally or Extraordinarily willed by God)?

Seems to me that if God has already willed people to have Rights according to Nature, he shouldn't have to will it again in specific cases (although he's free to do so, of course) on top of that in order to put a-cherry-on-top.

Image
I don't know.
There is certainly a precedent in the Natural Law for migration as being irresistible, however in the Bible there are examples of migration being both pleasing and repugnant to God.
Examples of what is pleasing supports political asylum scenarios (the flight into Egypt, Moses leading the Jews into Israel, The diaspora, etc...)
while examples of what is repugnant have to do with foreigners polluting Israel with practices displeasing to the God.

[…]
  • Point 1: If by "a precedent in the Natural Law" you mean that there are certain — to borrow popular terminology — "non-negotiable" Principles at play in Migration debates, then you are correct.

    Therefore, one's reading of the Bible has to be modulated in light of said Principles and not vice versa.
  • Point 2: One must remember that Israel is sui generis (just as the Church is sui generis).

    Therefore, no 1:1 comparison can be made twixt, for example, America and Israel. IOW, the Analogia Entis obtains in any-and-all comparisons between Israel/Church and any other reality.

    In the practical order, this means that the "pollution" of America's culture is not strictly equivalent to the pollution of Israel's culture. God's Plan is not hinging on America or The West or whatnot "remaining pure" according to the metric of some ideologized mythos.
Only by navigating the minefield between the above two Points in this way can one both remain faithful to the non-negotiable Principles enshrined in Natural Law and still deploy fruitful, though limited, analogies with God's Action in History.

Image


Image
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2725
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 232 times
Been thanked: 372 times

Faith in the news

Post by Del »

Where did anyone get the idea that America's border security is about "keeping America pure"?

That sounds like a leftist talking point from National Catholic Reporter and their ilk. No one who is actually concerned about fentanyl, terrorists, cartels, child sex traffickers, over-crowded camps, sprawling homeless camps, and encouraging desperate people to risk their lives crossing rivers and deserts infested with dangerous thugs ever mentioned "keeping America pure."

It's not even a thought. It's just a slander put forth by those who imagine increasing their own political gain from masses of desperate people. It's easier to call their opponents "racist" than to lift a finger of effort toward justice in immigration policy.

Reality is that it is easy for a white liberal from White Suburb, Ohio, to say that America can absorb an infinite amount of refugees. It's the Spanish-speaking regions of border states and inner-city neighborhoods who are screaming, "Enough! We can't support any more!"

Wozzie.... Joe Biden is the enemy of our natural right to free and just migration policy, balanced with our society's duty to promote our general welfare. He is the one who has let the cartels control migration. The cartels decide who gets into America and who doesn't, on their terms. And then he makes no provision for settling migrants. No legal status so they can find secure work, leaving them vulnerable to abuse by more unscrupulous actors. Just drops them off homeless in mid-sized cities, or leaves them stranded at the border.

Republicans are trying to introduce immigration reform. Democrats won't even talk about it... just sit on their hands there, shouting "Racist!"

Don't take my word for it:

Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Purity isn't the issue according to Aquinas as I read him.
Migrants have a moral obligation to respect the laws and culture of their welcoming home.
That is the bigger issue.
Post Reply