Faith in the news

For the thinkers, theologians, philospophers.
Post Reply
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 17:53 Purity isn't the issue according to Aquinas as I read him.

[…]
You're the one who used the term "foreigners polluting Israel".

Image


Image
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 236 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 19:03 +JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 17:53 Purity isn't the issue according to Aquinas as I read him.

[…]
You're the one who used the term "foreigners polluting Israel".

Image
With false gods, according to the prophets.
Aquinas was more concerned with the disintegration of government.
Greta doesn't have the monopoly on defining pollution.
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+MJ+
Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 19:26
Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 19:03
Hovannes wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 17:53 Purity isn't the issue according to Aquinas as I read him.

[…]
You're the one who used the term "foreigners polluting Israel".

Image
With false gods, according to the prophets.
Aquinas was more concerned with the disintegration of government.
Greta doesn't have the monopoly on defining pollution.
The problem isn't with the particular "pollutant" the foreigners are ostensibly using to compromise national "purity".

It could be false gods. It could be bad civics. It could be styrofoam or chlorofluorocarbons. It could be Kevin Sorbo.

The "pollutant" is irrelevant.

The problem is that your argument apparently trades on an illicit equivalence twixt Israel/Church and the modern Nation-State, whereas there is, at best, only an "unequal exchange" between the two.

Image Analogia Entis.

Image


Image
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 236 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 19:45 +MJ+



The problem is that your argument apparently trades on an illicit equivalence twixt Israel/Church and the modern Nation-State, whereas there is, at best, only an "unequal exchange" between the two.

Image Analogia Entis.

Image
The exchange has to do with tyranny, Wos.
Both Israel/Church and the modern Nation-State suffer the same ends at the hands of cartels and activists instead of governance.
How does this position change the outcome of unlawful migration verses lawful migration?
Does it make human trafficking more pleasing in God's eyes? Or the collapse of medical care along the border, under the weight of extraordinary demands somehow more palatable?
Are the lives of all concerned improving or getting worse?
There is no data I can find that over all supports one over the other but increased drug deaths, slavery and violence deserve to be an immediate concern.
That's a part of the elephant that remains hidden.

I believe the problems are solvable, but the political system has been, so far, unwilling to find a solution other than Biden's solution, which is to encourage more migrants to break the law which in turn creates more death, disease, crime and slavery.
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2727
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Faith in the news

Post by Del »

National Catholic Reporter is not faith.
National Catholic Reporter is not news.

NCR is a leftist/Democrat propaganda rag disguised to mislead gullible Catholics. Their staff were excommunicated by the bishop of their diocese. They abuse the name of "Catholic;" they do not have permission to call themselves Catholic.

Like all effective modern propaganda sources, they report on matters they want us to see and omit the parts that they don't want us to know.

As a result, any story from NCR must first be verified with trustworthy sources of Catholic and secular news.

This is most obvious in the way they report on abortion (which they admit is evil), while failing to say anything bad about the Democrats who support abortion. They also fail to applaud any Republicans who champion life-saving legislation. They only report on the legislation.

Meanwhile, they urge all of their readers to support Democrat policies regarding border security and Palestine.

And they only report on Pope Francis when he says something that can be bent to support Democrat party policies. Thus we hear Francis's words of charity toward persons with disordered sexualities, but we don't see when Francis calls out sin and Democrat policies that support sin.
=============================

John Allen was a writer for National Catholic Reporter. He had a reputation as the only writer of integrity there. He left NCR and established an alternative Catholic news site called CRUX. I don't know anything more about CRUX except that Wosbald likes to link to them here.

For now, I hold CRUX in the category of "trust, but verify."
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Hovannes wrote: 04 Feb 2023, 06:47
Wosbald wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 19:45 The problem is that your argument apparently trades on an illicit equivalence twixt Israel/Church and the modern Nation-State, whereas there is, at best, only an "unequal exchange" between the two.

Image Analogia Entis.

Image
The exchange has to do with tyranny, Wos.
Both Israel/Church and the modern Nation-State suffer the same ends at the hands of cartels and activists instead of governance.
How does this position change the outcome of unlawful migration verses lawful …

[…]
Image

With all yer goin' on-and-on about studying Aquinas under a prof's tutelage, I s'pose I assumed greater theologico-philosophical learning on your part than warranted.

I figured that if I simply mentioned the Analogia Entis, then you'd immediately get my meaning and make the necessary correctives.

Suffice it to say that you're trying to negotiate this topic without command of what is probably the single-most-important regulative concept governing any intersection of philosophy and theology.

Lemme strongly suggest you start at square-one.

For baby-steps, try googling "Analogia Entis" and "Fourth Lateran Council". That should give you a bite on it.

After that, there are plenty of resources dealing with the issue from the perspective of a variety of schools.

Here's a smattering:
  • Analogia Entis: Metaphysics: Original Structure and Universal Rhythm by Erich Przywara

    Image

    The classic contemporary treatment. Essential.

    ∗∗∗
  • The Analogy of Being: Invention of the Antichrist or Wisdom of God? by Various Authors, Thomas Joseph White (ed.)

    Image

    An ecumenical collection of essays from contributors on both sides of Przywara/Barth debate: Catholic, Orthodox on one side and Protestants on the other.

    I've not read this.

    ∗∗∗
  • Reimagining the 'Analogia Entis': The Future of Erich Przywara's Christian Vision by Phillip John Paul Gonzales

    Image

    Excellent (and maybe the best book-length intro).

    ∗∗∗
  • Analogia Entis: On the Analogy of Being, Metaphysics, and the Act of Faith by Steven A. Long

    Image

    A hard-line Neo-NeoThomist take.

    I've not read this.

    I'm sure it has much of value but, from what I hear-tell, is so old-school that it veers close to a "hermeneutic of suspicion" even to the edge of viewing Ratzinger as critically compromised with Modernity on some issues.

    ∗∗∗
  • The Analogical Turn: Rethinking Modernity with Nicholas of Cusa by Johannes Hoff

    Image

    I know nothing of this book either-one-way-or-the-other.

    ∗∗∗
  • Karl Barth and the 'Analogia Entis' by Keith L. Johnson

    Image

    Nor do I know anything of this book either-way.​​

    ∗∗∗
Though you don't necessarily need to ready any of these books in order to get a handle on the relevant basics, until you do get such a basic grasp, I'd heartily recommend you refrain from engaging this topic as involving Israel/Church, Universal Rights, etc.

Image


Image
Hovannes
Door Greeter
Door Greeter
Posts: 1408
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 08:34
Has thanked: 454 times
Been thanked: 236 times

Faith in the news

Post by Hovannes »

Image
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2727
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Faith in the news

Post by Del »

I ran wosbald's Analogia Entis by Pipeson. He's never heard of it either, but a quick internet search says that this is a 20th century concept devised by the Polish writer in wosbald's first reference book.

We don't know what this has to do with the tea in China, but it makes sense that most of us have never heard of it. It is not fundamental to anything.
=========================

My working theory is that wosbald's bit of sophistry hinges on this: Wosbald says that the "right to migration" is as fundamental as the "right to life." (Funny how Thomas Jefferson never thought of this.) Obviously, the two are not fairly comparable.

There is a natural human right to migration, but it is not as simple as the right to life. Every innocent human person has a natural right to life, and thus every person has a natural moral duty to protect innocent life.

Migration is much more complex and requires a great deal of synthesis. It's akin to our moral theology concerning "just war" -- we must balance the motives, the purpose, the costs, and the effectiveness. There is no simple principle that applies to every case.

All I know is that Biden's border policies have resulted in tremendous human suffering and a humanitarian crisis. The Trump-era policies could have been better, but the Biden-era policies are so much worse.

Some of the proposals being introduced by the Republican House leadership are significantly more just and humane, but they won't get past Biden or even the Democrat Senate. They see opportunity for amassing political power by exploiting and perpetuating the suffering. They want to repeat what they have accomplished to the urban Black community by creating another desperate class.
User avatar
Wosbald
Sunday School Superintendent
Sunday School Superintendent
Posts: 993
Joined: 15 Nov 2022, 10:50
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Faith in the news

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Examining the Analogia Entis from the POV of Aquinas, this article may be a suitable intro for those steeped in a Thomistic background. And though I've neither read it (yet) nor am I deeply immersed in the world of Thomism, it looks quite good. And fairly demanding, as well, which I'd say is also good.

=========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

The Analogy of Being in the Works of Thomas Aquinas [In-Depth]
Image

Image
“Triumph of St. Thomas Aquinas”, by Bennozzo Gozzoli, circa 1471. (author photo)

Today I will attempt to explain one of the most knotty and controversial principles in the theology of Thomas Aquinas: the analogy of being between God and creatures, also known by its Latin name, analogia entis. Much ink has been spilt over this concept, yet the discussion can seem inaccessible to the average lay person. The basic idea is simple enough, but it is linked with complicated aspects of metaphysics and cannot be fully understood without some knowledge of medieval scholastic theology. As a result, most people will never know or care about the analogy of being.

Despite this, you will find some theologians, particularly within the Reformed world, who are firmly opposed to the assertion that an analogy of being exists between God and creatures. Among the most famous critics of this principle in an American Reformed context was Cornelius Van Til. However, were we to consider the issue on a global scale, the most prominent critic of the analogy of being in the 20th century was surely the Swiss Neo-orthodox theologian Karl Barth, who famously debated Erich Przywara on this very subject in the 1930s. It was Barth who left us with perhaps the most headline-grabbing comment about the analogy of being in history. “I regard the analogia entis as the invention of the antichrist, and I believe that because of it, it is impossible ever to become a Roman Catholic, all other reasons for not doing so being to my mind short-sighted and trivial.”

When one reads a comment like that from such an influential modern theologian, it begs the question, just what is so terrible about the analogy of being that the Protestant Barth, when he had to choose his number one reason for not being a Catholic, did not mention anything about justification, papal authority, the veneration of saints, or the sacraments, but opted instead for this more obscure metaphysical concept? On the other hand, perhaps my readers will be more concerned to know why a number of conservative Reformed scholars consider themselves Thomists in terms of metaphysics if Aquinas was in league with the antichrist or at least veering sharply from the truth of scripture.

My goal in this essay is to determine what Thomas Aquinas taught about the analogy of being. In the future, I hope to give special consideration to how it linked with his notion of divine participation, as that has been a chief source of criticism among Protestants. I also hope to examine the criticisms of Cornelius Van Til and how other Reformed theologians have received this portion of Aquinas’ thought, but life with a new baby makes such things difficult. Come back in ten years, perhaps.

If you are in the mood for some light reading, this is probably not for you, but if you are prepared for a deep dive to learn more about Christian theology, then I welcome you to sit back with your favorite snack or beverage and watch me attempt to engage with one of the most influential theologians of all time. I may succeed or fail spectacularly, and either could be entertaining in its own right.

Initial Considerations

[…]

The Issue of Predication

[…]

Predication between God and Creatures in Scotus’ Writings

[…]

Univocal Predication according to Aquinas

[…]

Aquinas’ Preferred Method of Predication: Analogy

[…]

But What Kind of Analogy?

[…]

The Gulf Between Divine and Creaturely Existence

[…]

Conclusion

[…]


Image
User avatar
Del
Usher
Usher
Posts: 2727
Joined: 11 Apr 2022, 22:08
Location: Madison, WI
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Faith in the news

Post by Del »

Pipeson graduated from a classical Catholic academy high school, then college seminary majoring in philosophy. He loved it, and continues reading and studying. His library is impressive.

Pipeson isn't a dark and brooding guy, reading and writing furiously by the light of a single candle (such as we might imagine Jerome or Wosbald doing).
Pipeson is a light-hearted, laughing fellow. Much as I imagine the young Aquinas might have been. He is "effervescent" -- if he is thinking about something, he bubbles over and talks about it.

All this is an introduction to say that Pipeson frequently turns toward the paradoxes of being. The topic is worth pondering, as deeply as you wish. Metaphysics does have application to modern social problems, and getting it wrong can mean disaster to a culture.

- Materialists deny that spiritual being exists, and certainly there is no "God" who must exist for anything else to be.
- Racists deny that human beings are equal, and assign a hierarchy of natural rights and guilt based on skin color and other differences.
- Gender ideologues deny that sex is immutable, insisting that gender is "assigned" rather than "observed," and thus gender can be changed by will alone.
- Like racists, abortion advocates insist that full humanity is granted to a person when society says so -- not from God from the beginning to natural death.

It is a long, wandering path from the metaphysics of being to any discussion of human rights. Lots of ways to go wrong, and we end up cancelling human rights or creating false rights along the way. All we know for sure is that the Christian study of philosophy has steadily increased our understanding and respect for human rights.... it was Christian theology that ended slavery in America, for example.

And if a culture's understanding of being loses its way, we end up with concentration camps for exterminating Jews, homeless camps of abused migrants on our borders, and abortion clinics in Black neighborhoods.
Post Reply