The Pope Francis Thread

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The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Del »

Wosbald wrote: 24 Dec 2023, 10:09 There's nothing scandalous about receiving Papal magisterium with docility and sincerity.
Except in cases, all too common with Francis, when his statements and guidance are not the least bit clear, allowing secular zealots within and without the Church to encourage sin and division. That's pretty much the biblical text definition of scandal.

Faithful Catholics could be as docile and sincere as possible under the circumstances. That doesn't fix the damage that secular media, America and NCR cause by crowing that "the Catholic Church blesses homosexual unions." Our witness to the world has been dealt a significant blow.
===============================

GLAD TIDINGS!!!

Some priests are speaking out from the pulpit, at least locally. I was at to two churches this weekend.

4th Sunday of Advent: The young priest devoted most of his sermon to this scandal. He stated the truth quite clearly: "No priest can bless an 'irregular situation' or 'sinful relations' without himself committing a very grave sin."

As the gospel reading was the Annunciation of Gabriel to Mary, Father encouraged us as a matter of spiritual warfare to renew our devotion to Mary as the one foretold in Genesis 3: "She crushes the head of the Serpent."

Christmas Eve: Pastor encouraged us to remain faithful against the world. "Even if those in authority fail to speak clearly. Even if the Pope, God forbid!, were to speak falsely, we are called to remain faithful."

I spoke with Father after Mass. "It was a poorly written document," he said, grimly. "Another poorly written document."
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The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 09:45[…]

Christmas Eve: Pastor [said] "… Even if the Pope, God forbid!, were to speak falsely …"

[…]
God forbid your pastor would believe such a thing to be within the scope of possibility.

Rather, the Pope, when speaking in persona Christi (i.e. magisterially) simply cannot, in any strict sense, "speak falsely". Full-Stop. To suggest otherwise is tantamount to believing that the Spirit could "speak falsely".

Now, it's possible that you've unintentionally misquoted your pastor and that the actual rhetoric he used fell within theologically-acceptable bounds.

For example, maybe your pastor said something like, "Even if the Pope, per impossible, were to speak falsely …"

Though such lingo would be theologically meaningless (i.e. an incoherency along the lines of, "Even if Jesus, per impossible, were to be The Debbil …"), at least it wouldn't be brushing-up against heresy.

:confusion-shrug:


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The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Del »

Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 11:32 +JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 09:45[…]

Christmas Eve: Pastor [said] "… Even if the Pope, God forbid!, were to speak falsely …"

[…]
God forbid your pastor would believe such a thing to be within the scope of possibility.

Rather, the Pope, when speaking in persona Christi (i.e. magisterially) simply cannot, in any strict sense, "speak falsely". Full-Stop. To suggest otherwise is tantamount to believing that the Spirit could "speak falsely".

Now, it's possible that you've unintentionally misquoted your pastor and that the actual rhetoric he used fell within theologically-acceptable bounds.

For example, maybe your pastor said something like, "Even if the Pope, per impossible, were to speak falsely …"

Though such lingo would be theologically meaningless (i.e. an incoherency along the lines of, "Even if Jesus, per impossible, were to be The Debbil …"), at least it wouldn't be brushing-up against heresy.

:confusion-shrug:
I used the bold and quotation marks to share their exact words. They both spoke slowly, clearly, and with emphasis so that their words could be understood and remembered.

Francis has found his loophole around the constraints of papal infallibility. He proclaims something that can be understood as faithful to ancient Christian faith. But with weaponized ambiguity, it can also be misunderstood to mean what any German or Jesuit or National Catholic Reporter or the pagan press wants it to mean.

I'm not sure what "praxis" is, but I liked it better when Jesuits did it quietly amongst themselves with no one was watching.
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The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 14:35[…]

Francis has found his loophole around the constraints of papal infallibility. He proclaims something that can be understood as faithful to ancient Christian faith. But with weaponized ambiguity, it can also be misunderstood to mean what any German or Jesuit or National Catholic Reporter or the pagan press wants it to mean.

[…]
This is an extremely problematic statement.

Unless you intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", you'll want to rethink it long & hard.

And if you do, indeed, intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", then you'll want to rethink that long & hard.

Take yer time. Srsly.

:techie-hourglass:


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The Pope Francis Thread

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Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 14:59 +JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 14:35[…]

Francis has found his loophole around the constraints of papal infallibility. He proclaims something that can be understood as faithful to ancient Christian faith. But with weaponized ambiguity, it can also be misunderstood to mean what any German or Jesuit or National Catholic Reporter or the pagan press wants it to mean.

[…]
This is an extremely problematic statement.

Unless you intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", you'll want to rethink it long & hard.

And if you do, indeed, intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", then you'll want to rethink that long & hard.

Take yer time. Srsly.

:techie-hourglass:
With all due respect to your monomania, I admit that you have thought about this a lot longer and harder than I have.

It is with gentle charity that I urge you to unthink your ultramontanism.

Francis has been double-speaking his support for the unsupportable for many years. Even the most charitable among us can see this and must admit this, as much as we respect the office of our Holy Father.

What Fr. Martin and the Jesuits at America have done is grave, public sin. It is scandal, inviting the weak to stumble. You are welcome to defend how this was not Pope Francis's fault and intention.

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The Pope Francis Thread

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+JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 15:32
Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 14:59 This is an extremely problematic statement.

Unless you intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", you'll want to rethink it long & hard.

And if you do, indeed, intend to say that the Holy Spirit is capable of speaking with "weaponized ambiguity", then you'll want to rethink that long & hard.

Take yer time. Srsly.

:techie-hourglass:
[…]

Francis has been double-speaking his support for the unsupportable for many years. Even the most charitable among us can see this and must admit this, as much as we respect the office of our Holy Father.

[…]
There's simply no way to make a hard & fast separation between the 1) the Person and 2) the Office — no way to say that the Person is magisterially speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" whilst the Office (i.e. the Spirit) is not.

To say that the Pope's magisterium is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" is equivalent to saying that the Spirit is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity".

It's just that simple.

:techie-reference:


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The Pope Francis Thread

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Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 17:04 To say that the Pope's magisterium is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" is equivalent to saying that the Spirit is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity".

It's just that simple.

:techie-reference:
I am saying that Francis has been a faithless Pope.

It's just that simple.

I trust that the Holy Spirit has prevented him from doing irreparable damage. This is the only guarantee that the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility has against a faithless pope.

Which leaves two options:

1) The Holy Spirit will see the Church set up right again soon.
2) The prophecies of a "faithless pope" amidst the Great Apostasy in the End Times are true as some believe, and there will soon be great persecutions as Christ is coming.

Both are fine with me. My duty is to remain faithful and carry on, either way.
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The Pope Francis Thread

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Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 19:22
Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 17:04 To say that the Pope's magisterium is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" is equivalent to saying that the Spirit is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity".

It's just that simple.

:techie-reference:
I am saying that Francis has been a faithless Pope.

It's just that simple.

I trust that the Holy Spirit has prevented him from doing irreparable damage. This is the only guarantee that the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility has against a faithless pope.

Which leaves two options:

1) The Holy Spirit will see the Church set up right again soon.
2) The prophecies of a "faithless pope" amidst the Great Apostasy in the End Times are true as some believe, and there will soon be great persecutions as Christ is coming.

Both are fine with me. My duty is to remain faithful and carry on, either way.
Profound. Very profound.
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The Pope Francis Thread

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Hovannes wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 20:00
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 19:22
Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 17:04 To say that the Pope's magisterium is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" is equivalent to saying that the Spirit is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity".

It's just that simple.

:techie-reference:
I am saying that Francis has been a faithless Pope.

It's just that simple.

I trust that the Holy Spirit has prevented him from doing irreparable damage. This is the only guarantee that the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility has against a faithless pope.

Which leaves two options:

1) The Holy Spirit will see the Church set up right again soon.
2) The prophecies of a "faithless pope" amidst the Great Apostasy in the End Times are true as some believe, and there will soon be great persecutions as Christ is coming.

Both are fine with me. My duty is to remain faithful and carry on, either way.
Profound. Very profound.
Quite the opposite, actually.... Very simple. Very obvious.

Although I am not without admiration for the tremendous effort you must have gone though in order to think as you do.
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The Pope Francis Thread

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Del wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 19:22
Wosbald wrote: 25 Dec 2023, 17:04 To say that the Pope's magisterium is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity" is equivalent to saying that the Spirit is speaking with "weaponized ambiguity".

It's just that simple.

:techie-reference:
I am saying that Francis has been a faithless Pope.

It's just that simple.

[…]
"Faithless Pope"?

Pastor Aeternus (Vat I) would certainly seem to say otherwise — would certainly seem to suggest that "Faithless Pope" is an oxymoron.
This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See, so that they …

     — Pastor Aeternus; IV, 7
:techie-studyingbrown:


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