The Pope Francis Thread

[Del]

+JMJ+

[…]

The weirdest thing is that Francis seems to believe that prelates like Cardinal Burke and Bishop Strickland are responsible for the "disunity" that Francis himself is causing!

[…]

This sounds, mutatis mutandis, a lot like what certain historical personages might say.

The weirdest thing is that Pope Leo X seems to believe that Brother Martin is responsible for the "disunity" that Leo himself is causing!

Now that, right there, is weird.

Are you suggesting that Bishop Strickland and Cardinal Burke are urging the same sort of defiance and rebellion that Martin Luther nailed to the door?

Because you are the only one saying that, if you are.
======================================
[Edit] Actually, I don't care about your opinion. I mean.... I do care, but I don't want to be uncharitable about your support for a bad pope.

I do have a question for you. And I trust your integrity to answer honestly:

What does your pastor/priest say about this situation?
How about your bishop? Any comments?

Do they support Francis and his policies?
Do they speak carefully about his scandals?
Are they cowed into silence?

I'm just wondering what your own spiritual leaders are saying.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Are you suggesting that Bishop Strickland and Cardinal Burke are urging the same sort of defiance and rebellion that Martin Luther nailed to the door?

Because you are the only one saying that, if you are.
======================================
[Edit] Actually, I don't care about your opinion. I mean.... I do care, but I don't want to be uncharitable about your support for a bad pope.

I do have a question for you. And I trust your integrity to answer honestly:

What does your pastor/priest say about this situation?
How about your bishop? Any comments?

Do they support Francis and his policies?
Do they speak carefully about his scandals?
Are they cowed into silence?

I'm just wondering what your own spiritual leaders are saying.

Regarding whatever Bp. Strickland or Card. Burke or other sundry pastors may be saying: None of that, at least strictly speaking, matters.

None of that matters because Papal power has 5 basic qualities — one of them being "Immediacy". IOW, the Pope speaks directly to all, standing in no need of filtration through any "chain-of-command" or other structure. (This is one of the reasons why, as I've mentioned before, the Pope is decidedly not the "pastor-of-all-pastors" but is rather, the Universal Pastor.)

So, whatever various pastors may or mayn't be saying is, at least for the most fundamental questions, a nonstarter. Hiding behind one's pastor's cassock to avoid dealing with the Pope's "manifest mind & will" is a dog that won't hunt.

[Del]

+JMJ+

Are you suggesting that Bishop Strickland and Cardinal Burke are urging the same sort of defiance and rebellion that Martin Luther nailed to the door?

Because you are the only one saying that, if you are.
======================================
[Edit] Actually, I don't care about your opinion. I mean.... I do care, but I don't want to be uncharitable about your support for a bad pope.

I do have a question for you. And I trust your integrity to answer honestly:

What does your pastor/priest say about this situation?
How about your bishop? Any comments?

Do they support Francis and his policies?
Do they speak carefully about his scandals?
Are they cowed into silence?

I'm just wondering what your own spiritual leaders are saying.

Regarding whatever Bp. Strickland or Card. Burke or other sundry pastors may be saying: None of that, at least strictly speaking, matters.

None of that matters because Papal power has 5 basic qualities — one of them being "Immediacy". IOW, the Pope speaks directly to all, standing in no need of filtration through any "chain-of-command" or other structure. (This is one of the reasons why, as I've mentioned before, the Pope is decidedly not the "pastor-of-all-pastors" but is rather, the Universal Pastor.)

So, whatever various pastors may or mayn't be saying is, at least for the most fundamental questions, a nonstarter. Hiding behind one's pastor's cassock to avoid dealing with the Pope's "manifest mind & will" is a dog that won't hunt.

I know all of that. I don't know what your own pastors are saying.

Do they support Francis and his policies?
Do they speak carefully about his scandals?
Are they cowed into silence?

I'm hoping they have the courage of St. John Fisher.
I expect they are behaving like all the rest of English bishops did.

My pastors are dancing carefully around the concerns. Mainly telling us to remain faithful to Christ and His Church, avoid temptations to rebellion and anger, and patiently pray for the Holy Spirit to sort this out. [Basic subtext: Pope Francis has made himself irrelevant. It really doesn't matter that his newest Cardinal buddy can perform the miracle of passing a golf ball through a garden hose.]

Our bishop is treading carefully to comply with Francis's edicts, meanwhile preserving our access to Traditional Latin Mass worship.

It will be interesting what is mentioned this week, as many in our parish have personal connections with the great Cardinal Burke. There is even some excitement, as his eviction from the Vatican creates a strong possibility that he will return home to Wisconsin.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

[…]

My pastors are dancing carefully around the concerns. Mainly telling us to remain faithful to Christ and His Church, avoid temptations to rebellion and anger, and patiently pray for the Holy Spirit to sort this out. [Basic subtext: Pope Francis has made himself irrelevant. …

[…]

Not knowing how else to take "irrelevant", it seems hard to Catholically characterize a disunity between those who receive and those who refuse to receive the Pope's magisterium as being the fault of Pope.

[Hovannes]

+JMJ+

[…]

My pastors are dancing carefully around the concerns. Mainly telling us to remain faithful to Christ and His Church, avoid temptations to rebellion and anger, and patiently pray for the Holy Spirit to sort this out. [Basic subtext: Pope Francis has made himself irrelevant. …

[…]

Not knowing how else to take "irrelevant", it seems hard to Catholically characterize a disunity between those who receive and those who refuse to receive the Pope's magisterium as being the fault of Pope.

I don't see that since Francis has received Dubias from bishops begging for Francis' clarification on matters seeming to conflict with previous magisterium.
Francis' hostility towards, and inability to shepherd his bishops doesn't bode well with the Church, especially in the successful missionary fields of Africa, Asia and India where the magsterium of previous popes connect with the faithful.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Not knowing how else to take "irrelevant", it seems hard to Catholically characterize a disunity between those who receive and those who refuse to receive the Pope's magisterium as being the fault of Pope.

I don't see that since Francis has received Dubias from bishops begging for Francis' clarification on matters seeming to conflict with previous magisterium.

[…]

First things first. Del used the word "irrelevant". I can't see what that word is supposed to mean here other than "safely ignorable".

Now, if it doesn't mean that, if it's just a poor word choice or whatever — if the Church demographic in question still engages Francis' magisterium with "sincerity & docility" — then fair enuf and we can put this to bed.

[Del]

+JMJ+

[…]

My pastors are dancing carefully around the concerns. Mainly telling us to remain faithful to Christ and His Church, avoid temptations to rebellion and anger, and patiently pray for the Holy Spirit to sort this out. [Basic subtext: Pope Francis has made himself irrelevant. …

[…]

Not knowing how else to take "irrelevant", it seems hard to Catholically characterize a disunity between those who receive and those who refuse to receive the Pope's magisterium as being the fault of Pope.

Pope St. John Paul the Great was asked why he didn't discipline (Pope-slap) the dissident Catholic leaders and Jesuits that he endured during his reign. He answered humbly, "My authority ends at that door" -- pointing to his office entrance.

Francis can cause moral scandals, offend faithful Catholics, insult those who cherish the Latin Mass, elevate gay Jesuits to high offices, and generally throw his weight around like a petty tyrant... but the Holy Spirit will not be mocked.

It doesn't even matter that the grey-headed gay American Jesuits have rediscovered their old ultramontanism.

First things first. Del used the word "irrelevant". I can't see what that word is supposed to mean here other than "safely ignorable".

That is what I meant.

[Hovannes]

"... if the Church demographic in question still engages Francis' magisterium with "sincerity & docility" — then fair enuf..."

There are Catholics who warm pews, and Catholics who don't.
Catholics who turn to Scripture and Catholics who turn to wishful thinking.
Which demographic checks Francis' boxes?
It appears that bishops who seek clarification from Francis are persona non grata and bishops who seek clarification from scripture aren't much better off.
Is this the fault of the bishops?
Or is it the fault of poorly composed magisterium on Francis' part? And if it is, can it be a legitimate magisterium, since the magisterium truly cannot be erroneous?
I don't have an answer but I think many Catholics are humbly grateful to be united by the Eucharist despite what Francis and his theologians muse.

I'm curious, do you expect a schism like Francis apparently does?

[Del]

I'm curious, do you expect a schism like Francis apparently does?

I don't expect a schism. None of the victims are calling for schism... Bishop Strickland, Cardinal Burke, Archbishop Vigano, Bishop Dominique Rey of France. All are calling for prayer, patience, and obedience to what we have been given as truth.

A schism requires some sort of leader, and no one wants to be that guy. I don't expect a schism.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see an acceleration of the Great Apostasy and persecution of the faithful remnant Church.

In her apparitions from Fatima to Akita, Our Lady has warned us that this is coming.

The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, and bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres...

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

[…]

… [C]an it be a legitimate magisterium, since the magisterium truly cannot be erroneous?

[…]

I'm curious, do you expect a schism like Francis apparently does?

If people keep proposing theological incoherencies like "legitimate magisterium", then I think the question answers itself.

If one claims access to some higher authority so as to sift True from Pretender magisterium, then newsflash: one doesn't need a Magisterium. IOW, the Magisterium would only exist in order to parrot one's own opinion.