What is "Nationalism"?

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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Wosbald's signature line wrote:"Nationalism … is thus the antithesis of true patriotism, and today we must ensure that extreme nationalism does not continue to give rise to new forms of the aberrations of totalitarianism."
— Pope John Paul II, Address to the UN
I'm certain that St. John Paul the Great was not confused about the topic he was speaking of when referring to "nationalism."

John Paul II respected the patriotism of his native Poland. He worked closely with Lech Wałęsa, leader of the Solidarity independence movement and first President of newly reborn Republic of Poland.

On the other hand, John Paul saw firsthand the dangerous nationalism of the Nazis, and whatever we should call the nationalistic terror of Stalin.

Is there anything in America that resembles the "nationalism" that JPII condemns?
- Perhaps the ongoing devotion to mask and vaccine mandates and covid restrictions?
- Or the indoctrination of children with woke gender and race theories in our public schools?
- Or taking over the news media and social media to propagate the government message and suppressing other opinions?
- Acts by government officials in recent years to suppress the free exercise of religion?

I'm looking for JPII's "new forms of the aberrations of totalitarianism" in our present society as signs of "nationalism." Am I on the right track? It seems that JPII's "nationalism" is Orwellian devotion to government policy. And it looks a lot like Soviet communism.

It seems to me that Democrat policies are often the "nationalism" to be feared, broadly writ.

I am ready to be sharpened or corrected.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Hovannes »

Aquinas would have agreed with JPII.
Obeying laws (lawful laws) and maintaining a national defense (and border) is, by extension, honoring your mother and father.
It is owed as is defending the weak.

I think the flavor of nationalism that's most harmful is when Nationalism replaces God as the prime mover, such as with the tyrants in the Old Testament, the French Revolution, National Socialism, and Communism.
The jury is still out on the Jesuits, LOL.
Last edited by Hovannes on 20 Dec 2022, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by tuttle »

I think it's most often used (positively or negatively) today as an antithesis of Globalism.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Del wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 17:39 It seems to me that Democrat policies are often the "nationalism" to be feared, broadly writ.
I should be a bit more clear about this.

It's not that a I have partisan dislike for Democrats, or that Republicans have not been guilty of jingoistic fervor.

It's just that Democrats are the ruling Establishment now. They dominate the culture.They control the schools, universities, the justice system, every last government bureaucracy, the news media, the entertainment media, the social media, and all the narratives. They are rapidly taking over the military, edging out Christian soldiers with woke acolytes. They remain the Establishment, even when they lose elections.

If "nationalism" means anything specific and evil, I'd define it as "blind and unquestioning support for any and all policies of the nation's Establishment."

I guess a defining mark between patriotism and nationalism could be this:

Under patriotism, the citizen-families thrive in freedom and prosperity.

Under nationalism, the State Establishment increases as everything else declines.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 05:40 I think it's most often used (positively or negatively) today as an antithesis of Globalism.
I've heard that usage too, but I don't think it applies to JPII's concern.

GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."

I found it:
We are talking about the idea of loyalty; perhaps a fantastic, perhaps only an unfashionable idea, but one we can explain and defend as an idea. Now I have already pointed out that most sane men do admit our ideal in such a case as patriotism or public spirit; the necessity of saving the state to which we belong. The patriot may revile but must not renounce his country; he must curse it to cure it, but not to wither it up. The old pagan citizens felt thus about the city; and modern nationalists feel thus about the nation. But even mere modern internationalists feel it about something; if it is only the nation of mankind. Even the humanitarian does not become a misanthrope and live in a monkey–house. Even a disappointed Collectivist or Communist does not retire into the exclusive society of beavers, because beavers are all communists of the most class–conscious solidarity.
I feel like globalism (rule under international regime) would be the worst development of JPII's nationalism. It would be the polar opposite of Catholic Social Teaching, as major decisions would be made far away from home. Local families would soon be deprived of the most basic freedoms -- such as how their children should be educated, or their choices in food, transportation, and how to heat their homes.

You want to see globalism in action? It was the British Empire -- perhaps the largest and most nationalistic, jingoistic culture on earth.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by tuttle »

Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:05
tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 05:40 I think it's most often used (positively or negatively) today as an antithesis of Globalism.
I've heard that usage too, but I don't think it applies to JPII's concern.

GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."

I found it:
We are talking about the idea of loyalty; perhaps a fantastic, perhaps only an unfashionable idea, but one we can explain and defend as an idea. Now I have already pointed out that most sane men do admit our ideal in such a case as patriotism or public spirit; the necessity of saving the state to which we belong. The patriot may revile but must not renounce his country; he must curse it to cure it, but not to wither it up. The old pagan citizens felt thus about the city; and modern nationalists feel thus about the nation. But even mere modern internationalists feel it about something; if it is only the nation of mankind. Even the humanitarian does not become a misanthrope and live in a monkey–house. Even a disappointed Collectivist or Communist does not retire into the exclusive society of beavers, because beavers are all communists of the most class–conscious solidarity.
I feel like globalism (rule under international regime) would be the worst development of JPII's nationalism. It would be the polar opposite of Catholic Social Teaching, as major decisions would be made far away from home. Local families would soon be deprived of the most basic freedoms -- such as how their children should be educated, or their choices in food, transportation, and how to heat their homes.

You want to see globalism in action? It was the British Empire -- perhaps the largest and most nationalistic, jingoistic culture on earth.
I mean, globalism is in action today with a much farther reach than the British Empire had. I've come to appreciate the terms globohomo and GAE (Globalist American Empire), as it seems that's the main export and unifier/identifier of allies/subjects.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by mcommini »

tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:53
Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:05
tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 05:40 I think it's most often used (positively or negatively) today as an antithesis of Globalism.
I've heard that usage too, but I don't think it applies to JPII's concern.

GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."

I found it:
We are talking about the idea of loyalty; perhaps a fantastic, perhaps only an unfashionable idea, but one we can explain and defend as an idea. Now I have already pointed out that most sane men do admit our ideal in such a case as patriotism or public spirit; the necessity of saving the state to which we belong. The patriot may revile but must not renounce his country; he must curse it to cure it, but not to wither it up. The old pagan citizens felt thus about the city; and modern nationalists feel thus about the nation. But even mere modern internationalists feel it about something; if it is only the nation of mankind. Even the humanitarian does not become a misanthrope and live in a monkey–house. Even a disappointed Collectivist or Communist does not retire into the exclusive society of beavers, because beavers are all communists of the most class–conscious solidarity.
I feel like globalism (rule under international regime) would be the worst development of JPII's nationalism. It would be the polar opposite of Catholic Social Teaching, as major decisions would be made far away from home. Local families would soon be deprived of the most basic freedoms -- such as how their children should be educated, or their choices in food, transportation, and how to heat their homes.

You want to see globalism in action? It was the British Empire -- perhaps the largest and most nationalistic, jingoistic culture on earth.
I mean, globalism is in action today with a much farther reach than the British Empire had. I've come to appreciate the terms globohomo and GAE (Globalist American Empire), as it seems that's the main export and unifier/identifier of allies/subjects.
GAE implies that we're of different stuff than the British Empire- which is a common myth we've been championing since about 1793, but absolutely false. We may have used the distance of the Atlantic to pretend we don't have to listen to our rightful monarch and our government might not have had official ties to the government of the British Empire, but at our core we are WASP as the day is long and our mission has always been to spread WASP wherever we go.

Really, Washington is Constantinople to London's Rome. Same empire, only ideological bias has us attempt to break them apart into distinct entities.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by tuttle »

mcommini wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 07:40
tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:53
Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:05

I've heard that usage too, but I don't think it applies to JPII's concern.

GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."

I found it:


I feel like globalism (rule under international regime) would be the worst development of JPII's nationalism. It would be the polar opposite of Catholic Social Teaching, as major decisions would be made far away from home. Local families would soon be deprived of the most basic freedoms -- such as how their children should be educated, or their choices in food, transportation, and how to heat their homes.

You want to see globalism in action? It was the British Empire -- perhaps the largest and most nationalistic, jingoistic culture on earth.
I mean, globalism is in action today with a much farther reach than the British Empire had. I've come to appreciate the terms globohomo and GAE (Globalist American Empire), as it seems that's the main export and unifier/identifier of allies/subjects.
GAE implies that we're of different stuff than the British Empire- which is a common myth we've been championing since about 1793, but absolutely false. We may have used the distance of the Atlantic to pretend we don't have to listen to our rightful monarch and our government might not have had official ties to the government of the British Empire, but at our core we are WASP as the day is long and our mission has always been to spread WASP wherever we go.

Really, Washington is Constantinople to London's Rome. Same empire, only ideological bias has us attempt to break them apart into distinct entities.
I can get on board with that idea (GAE as extension of BE), tho I would disagree that the ideological exports are essentially the same.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 05:47 It's not that a I have partisan dislike for Democrats, or that Republicans have not been guilty of jingoistic fervor.

It's just that Democrats are the ruling Establishment now. . . They remain the Establishment, even when they lose elections.

If "nationalism" means anything specific and evil, I'd define it as "blind and unquestioning support for any and all policies of the nation's Establishment."

I guess a defining mark between patriotism and nationalism could be this:

Under patriotism, the citizen-families thrive in freedom and prosperity.

Under nationalism, the State Establishment increases as everything else declines.
What in blazes are you talking about? This looks to me like you've heard that 'nationalism' is seen or understood as a bad thing (it's the 'na" in nazi after all) so you're trying to pin it on the other side. Nationalism is simple enough - it's the unwavering devotion to ones own nation (or race as used for white nationalists) above all others. It's not a bad thing itself. One doesn't have to be against other peoples to be for ones own. I'd argue that the Christian model is to care for ones family & nation while also caring for others, as you're able, and especially others who are disadvantaged. It's why the Church has never asked for all of our fruits to share with others - you keep what you need for you and yours and give what you can to care for others. I know it's a stretch, but ideally, we'd like individuals, corporations, and yes, even nation-states, to operate per that model inasmuch as they can.

The Over Simplified Del Model™ looks like this:
R=Patriot=Good
D=Nationalist=Bad
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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Post by FredS »

mcommini wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 07:40
tuttle wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:53
Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 06:05 I've heard that usage too, but I don't think it applies to JPII's concern.

GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."

I found it:


I feel like globalism (rule under international regime) would be the worst development of JPII's nationalism. It would be the polar opposite of Catholic Social Teaching, as major decisions would be made far away from home. Local families would soon be deprived of the most basic freedoms -- such as how their children should be educated, or their choices in food, transportation, and how to heat their homes.

You want to see globalism in action? It was the British Empire -- perhaps the largest and most nationalistic, jingoistic culture on earth.
I mean, globalism is in action today with a much farther reach than the British Empire had. I've come to appreciate the terms globohomo and GAE (Globalist American Empire), as it seems that's the main export and unifier/identifier of allies/subjects.
GAE implies that we're of different stuff than the British Empire- which is a common myth we've been championing since about 1793, but absolutely false. We may have used the distance of the Atlantic to pretend we don't have to listen to our rightful monarch and our government might not have had official ties to the government of the British Empire, but at our core we are WASP as the day is long and our mission has always been to spread WASP wherever we go.

Really, Washington is Constantinople to London's Rome. Same empire, only ideological bias has us attempt to break them apart into distinct entities.
*American exceptionalism has historically referred to the belief that the United States differs qualitatively from other developed nations because of its national credo, historical evolution, or distinctive political and religious institutions.

This is, again, not a bad thing in itself. I, for instance, do believe America is the best yet. Intrinsically, American people are no more or less better, or important than other people. Our values and behaviors are largely informed by when and where we're born after all, so it's expected that ones homeland is vitally important and worth protecting as needed. But even in the US, the black man in Compton lives differently than the white man in the Bronx or the brown man in Miami, but our Christ peruses each with every ounce of His unlimited strength. While our country may be exceptional - and the model most often held high, thus the great desire to come live here - our people are just regular joe's in the grand scheme of things.

*I snipped that description from the web.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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