What is "Nationalism"?

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Del
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 09:04
Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 05:47 It's not that a I have partisan dislike for Democrats, or that Republicans have not been guilty of jingoistic fervor.

It's just that Democrats are the ruling Establishment now. . . They remain the Establishment, even when they lose elections.

If "nationalism" means anything specific and evil, I'd define it as "blind and unquestioning support for any and all policies of the nation's Establishment."

I guess a defining mark between patriotism and nationalism could be this:

Under patriotism, the citizen-families thrive in freedom and prosperity.

Under nationalism, the State Establishment increases as everything else declines.
What in blazes are you talking about? This looks to me like you've heard that 'nationalism' is seen or understood as a bad thing (it's the 'na" in nazi after all) so you're trying to pin it on the other side. Nationalism is simple enough - it's the unwavering devotion to ones own nation (or race as used for white nationalists) above all others. It's not a bad thing itself. One doesn't have to be against other peoples to be for ones own. I'd argue that the Christian model is to care for ones family & nation while also caring for others, as you're able, and especially others who are disadvantaged. It's why the Church has never asked for all of our fruits to share with others - you keep what you need for you and yours and give what you can to care for others. I know it's a stretch, but ideally, we'd like individuals, corporations, and yes, even nation-states, to operate per that model inasmuch as they can.

The Over Simplified Del Model™ looks like this:
R=Patriot=Good
D=Nationalist=Bad
There is also a narrative that R=nationalist=Trump=Nazi=bad. This is the Establishment narrative.

I am trying to cut through the fog of rhetoric and get at what JPII is trying to tell us, and what wosbald means by posting it as his signature.

JPII warns against new forms of tyranny being pressed upon us by way of national policy and national identity.

I am concerned that our schools and Blue-state legislatures are pressing CRT and LGBT agendas into our national identity. Christians have been cast as "bigots." Righteous citizens are afraid that they might be seen as "pro-life." Small business owners are being prosecuted for holding a private desire to respect natural marriages and avoid participating in gay weddings. A father is being prosecuted for exposing school officials who covered up the rape of his daughter in a girls' bathroom by a cross-dressing boy.

During covid, wearing a mask was a symbol of nationalistic conformity. Wearing an American flag patch was a sign of rebellion.

JPII offers a valid warning about nationalism and tyranny. I want to be sure that I/we are seeing the threats clearly.

There's one dog that isn't barking. Where's wosbald?
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 10:03 During covid, wearing a mask was a symbol of nationalistic conformity. Wearing an American flag patch was a sign of rebellion.
Not to me.
Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 10:03 There's one dog that isn't barking. Where's wosbald?
Perhaps operating on the Uncle Bob model of posting an article then just letting it lie to see what gets whipped up? Or perhaps he has other things in his life that come before wasting time on CPS? I know, that's a foolish notion, but hey, you never know about that dude.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 17:39 I'm certain that St. John Paul the Great was not confused about the topic he was speaking of when referring to "nationalism."
. . .
It seems to me that Democrat policies are often the "nationalism" to be feared, broadly writ.

I am ready to be sharpened or corrected.
I love you man.

Of course you're not so bold as to put words in his mouth, but you're pretty close to writing the Pope has denounced one of our political parties. By God's Grace it's the one you don't belong to. This time.

Whew, that was close. :think:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 11:18
Del wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 17:39 I'm certain that St. John Paul the Great was not confused about the topic he was speaking of when referring to "nationalism."
. . .
It seems to me that Democrat policies are often the "nationalism" to be feared, broadly writ.

I am ready to be sharpened or corrected.
I love you man.

Of course you're not so bold as to put words in his mouth, but you're pretty close to writing the Pope has denounced one of our political parties. By God's Grace it's the one you don't belong to. This time.

Whew, that was close. :think:
I opened the thread with the humility of inviting correction.

I'm not a big fan of the mostly spineless Republicans.

I have, of course, opposed the pro-abortion Party since before I could vote. [It blinded me as a young man.... for example, I didn't realize what a great President Bill Clinton was until years after he was out of office. If Obama had been 1/10th the statesman that Clinton was, there would never have been a President Trump.]

The new thing that I noticed yesterday was John Paul's warning against "nationalism." I know that many people accuse Trump and Bannon of being "nationalists" and liken them to Nazis. But then I got to thinking that 'nationalism' is more akin to marching with the Establishment, which is controlled by the Democrat Party. And I've been troubled by their recent surge of tyranny on multiple fronts.

Is this a useful insight? Am I way off-base? I put it to you guys.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by FredS »

Del wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 12:23 I opened the thread with the humility of inviting correction.
You did, indeed. I'm in no position to "correct" anyone on any of this, certainly not on what the Pope says aloud or covertly between the lines, now or in his past. He's your man.

So, no, I don't intend correction, merely sharing a counterpoint to the ideas you've expressed in this thread.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
FredS wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 11:18[…]

[That's] pretty close to writing the Pope has denounced one of our political parties. …

[…]
FWIW, Catholic can vote for anyone (though not with blithe equanimity). He could even vote fer the Debbil hisself. However, he would hafta oppose the Debbil in any of the debbilish political propositions which he might advance.

So yeah, a Catholic could certainly vote for Trump in good conscience, but he would be obliged to oppose (within the reasonable constraints imposed by his life's duties and station) the systemic violations against the Right to Migrate, the Fascism and hard Nationalisms, etc.

All this to say that yer correct that the Pope won't ever condemn any specific party or politician (though he might well condemn certain ideological tenets fashionable in certain political circles). However, he will always remind Catholics of their obligation to be attentive to the Word.

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"It is not enough to point the finger or attack those who do not think like us. That is a wretched tactic in today's political and cultural wars, but it cannot be the method of the Church."
    — Pope Francis, Meeting, Sept. 17, 2016
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Hovannes »

Was it Chesterton who wrote that "saying my country right or wrong is like saying my mother drunk or sober?"
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Hovannes »

JPII put great value in Aquinas, but Francis acts like he's pissed off at Thomists.
Why is this?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Biff »

Hovannes wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 20:27 JPII put great value in Aquinas, but Francis acts like he's pissed off at Thomists.
Why is this?
Isn't everyone pissed off at terrorists?
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Hovannes wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 20:27 JPII put great value in Aquinas, but Francis acts like he's pissed off at Thomists.
Why is this?
I assume that this is because he is a weaselly Jesuit.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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