What is "Nationalism"?

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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Hovannes wrote: 20 Dec 2022, 20:17 Was it Chesterton who wrote that "saying my country right or wrong is like saying my mother drunk or sober?"
https://www.chesterton.org/my-country-right-or-wrong/
The line is from Chesterton’s first book of essays, The Defendant (1901) from the chapter, “A Defence of Patriotism”:

‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.'
Jingoism ("hard nationalism," as wosbald names it) was running pretty hot in England before the Great War. Britain was the world's only superpower with a vast Empire. The racial superiority of the Teutonic tribes was undisputed.

As Chesterton wrote this, the Boer War was well underway. Chesterton had opposed the Boer War from the beginning, in keeping with his principle that all people should be able to rule themselves as much as they want to.

In 1901, news broke that the British military response to the uprising was to burn all homes and crops and kill all livestock across vast regions where partisans were still resisting, and Boer families were being crowded into concentration camps. Starvation, disease and deaths of tens of thousands, mostly children.
Wikipedia wrote:A report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50 percent of the Boer child population] were children under 16) had died in the camps. In all, about one in four (25 percent) of the Boer inmates, mostly children, died.

"Improvements [however] were much slower in coming to the black camps".[12] It is thought that about 12 percent of black African inmates died (about 14,154) but the precise number of deaths of black Africans in concentration camps is unknown as little attempt was made to keep any records of the 107,000 black Africans who were interned.
The nationalist fervor cancelled anyone who spoke against the military and the concentration camps. Chesterton wrote his essay to defend those patriots (like himself) who loved Britain enough to condemn her atrocities and inhuman treatment of Boer women and children.
=========================================

It is easy to see the same "nationalistic" mood among Americans. We aren't jingoistic or racist -- but some of us are so fixed on the idea that "migration is a human right" that we are willing to blindly overlook the concentration camp conditions on our southern border due to Biden's policies and willful neglect. Conditions are far worse (by orders of magnitude) than existed under Trump or even Obama.

The "nationalism" is most evident among the liberal media, who refuse to report on the conditions or get some pictures from the refugee camps as Biden does nothing to ease the humanitarian crisis. Anyone who voices concern about the crisis is cancelled as "racist."

"Nationalism" is not the best word to describe this attitude. But it squarely hits JPII's warning.... The guardians of freedom and decency are unwilling to criticize government policies and leaders when they fail to address the severe problems that they have caused.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

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This thread looks promising. I shan't ruin it by posting to it tonight.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Biff »

"Shan't" is a good word. Not used enough in my books.
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Biff wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:37 "Shan't" is a good word. Not used enough in my books.
Don't shan't your pants.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Biff »

Del wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:41
Biff wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:37 "Shan't" is a good word. Not used enough in my books.
Don't shan't your pants.
I shan't.
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Biff wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:49
Del wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:41
Biff wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:37 "Shan't" is a good word. Not used enough in my books.
Don't shan't your pants.
I shan't.
Don't shan't. You'd better not shan't.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Hugo Drax »

Biff wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 20:37 "Shan't" is a good word. Not used enough in my books.
You're not reading the right books.
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Trinity »

To much nonsense here, I'll see what I can do.
Del wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 17:39 Or the indoctrination of children with woke gender and race theories in our public schools?
All children in any form of education are "indoctrinated" in some way or another, including those in Catholic schools.

And the idea that parents should have the freedom to educate their children "any way they want" is a newfangled hippie value which harkens to the 1960s.

Parents and families during the era of the Medieval Church did not have the freedom to educate their children other than in the state-approved, Catholic tradition. Anything else would have been both heresy and criminal.
- Acts by government officials in recent years to suppress the free exercise of religion?
"Free exercise of religion" is a also newfangled, modernist value, not a traditional or religious one.

There was no right to "freely exercise any religion" during the era of the Medieval Church. Only freedom to exercise the state-approved, Catholic one.
I think the flavor of nationalism that's most harmful is when Nationalism replaces God as the prime mover, such as with the tyrants in the Old Testament, the French Revolution, National Socialism, and Communism.
So in other words, they rejected the Globalism of Christ and His message for all of humanity in favor of the nationalism of mankind. Similar to the Jewish nationalism which led to the crucifixion of Christ.
It's just that Democrats are the ruling Establishment now. They dominate the culture.They control the schools, universities, the justice system, every last government bureaucracy, the news media, the entertainment media, the social media, and all the narratives. They are rapidly taking over the military, edging out Christian soldiers with woke acolytes. They remain the Establishment, even when they lose elections.
Unless someone is willing to define specifically what is "leftist" and why that is so, then it's often only as leftist as the viewer is rightist, or vice versa.

(For example, if you ask the Revolutionary Communist Party of America, they'd probably say that 99% of "the establishment" is "far-right", "capitalist", "fascist" and so on - up to an including Berkeley University).
GKC makes a comment in The Superstition of Divorce, regarding how a globalist is merely a nationalist (or patriot) devoted to "the nation of mankind."
No that's just what a Christian is. A nationalist devoted to Christ's globalist message for all of humanity and the Kingdom of God, above the familial and national allegiances of mankind.

Christ could've chosen to share his message only with his immediate family, or only with the Jews, but rather wanted his message to be global in reach and something which all of humanity conformed to - taking precedence over temporal ties to family, nation, and so on.

In summary, I'm not sure why you're feigning these newfangled, post-Enlightenment era concerns about trivium such as "individual liberties" and "free exercise of religion", because:

*Christianity is a globalist religion with a message for all of humanity, not just a specific family, race, or nation.

*You're perfectly fine with indoctrination and conformity to the religious establishment and its experts and elitists. So your problem isn't some far-left, hippie, "anti-establishment" narrative. The problem is solely whether or not it is your establishment which is in power and carries the force of law, or whether it is someone else's establishment encroaching on your own.
I found it:
...
I don't think that experts like Chesterton should act like they know better than individuals and families do.

Individuals and families should decide on their own what gods to worship, who to have sex with, and whether or not to get abortions. Rather than allowing some stuck-up religious elitists decide what is universally right and wrong instead of letting the individuals and families decide this for themselves.

(Hopefully the point here wasn't missed) :twisted:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Biff »

Trinity wrote: 24 Dec 2022, 15:10 To much nonsense here, I'll see what I can do.
I shan't allow it!
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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What is "Nationalism"?

Post by Del »

Trinity wrote: 24 Dec 2022, 15:10 To much nonsense here, I'll see what I can do.
Del wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 17:39 Or the indoctrination of children with woke gender and race theories in our public schools?
All children in any form of education are "indoctrinated" in some way or another, including those in Catholic schools.

And the idea that parents should have the freedom to educate their children "any way they want" is a newfangled hippie value which harkens to the 1960s.

Parents and families during the era of the Medieval Church did not have the freedom to educate their children other than in the state-approved, Catholic tradition. Anything else would have been both heresy and criminal.
You truly have no idea what you are talking about. Somebody told you this, and you accepted it purely on faith alone, and it's wrong.

Please discard your indoctrination, and get some real education. You'll be so much happier for it. Read some real history, written by the guys who lived it. Start with Chaucer. Learn how the medieval Christians really thought of themselves and acted with each other.

Don't come back until you do.
What part of "HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM" do you not understand?
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