Christian Pipe Smokers

Biff wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 19:20

jmg wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:09

Biff wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:00

I said "THERE ARE NO NIGGERS IN LOTR"

Wisdom would probably say to delete this.

NO!

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 08:58 I watched the whole series, going into it with very low expectations. I was introduced to the books in 1982; read them and re-read them throughout my life. Reading the Silmarillion got me reading the Bible and that led to my conversion. With LOTR so much a part of my life, I just sort of had to watch the series. What else was I going to watch at that time? I would say it's about as good as anything on Prime or Netflix. That's not necessarily saying a lot.

Del wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 11:53

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 08:58 I watched the whole series, going into it with very low expectations. I was introduced to the books in 1982; read them and re-read them throughout my life. Reading the Silmarillion got me reading the Bible and that led to my conversion. With LOTR so much a part of my life, I just sort of had to watch the series. What else was I going to watch at that time? I would say it's about as good as anything on Prime or Netflix. That's not necessarily saying a lot.

I am unconcerned about their woke casting choices. Except that this induces some fear that they might weave modern pagan woke themes into Tolkien's Christian worldview.

In Tolkien's writing, the virtue of chastity was maintained with manly chivalry. Pride was the mortal sin that brought down the mighty.

The Hollywood pagans celebrate both pride and lewd behavior of all sorts. Hard to believe they could handle Tolkien's work without temptation to screw it up.

So I have been waiting for a trustworthy review. There are rumors that it wasn't bad.

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:31 I was not on the lookout for inconsistencies with Tolkien's Christian worldview; though I did notice some "sympathy for the Orcs" here and there, which may be anti-Tolkien, so to speak. I would be very interested on your take on how it may have departed from Tolkien's Christian worldview, if/when you watch it.

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:31 I was not on the lookout for inconsistencies with Tolkien's Christian worldview; though I did notice some "sympathy for the Orcs" here and there, which may be anti-Tolkien, so to speak.

[…]

Wosbald wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 13:10 +JMJ+

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:31 I was not on the lookout for inconsistencies with Tolkien's Christian worldview; though I did notice some "sympathy for the Orcs" here and there, which may be anti-Tolkien, so to speak.

[…]

It's impossible to avoid all whiff of Race Essentialism in Tolkien, since he wrote in the "grand, old style", and said Essentialism is an "essential" structuring element of such a narratival genealogy. IOW, it's baked into the DNA of this narrative tradition — inherited from the Pagans — and without which there would be no classical storytelling conventions at all.

But if one can't get rid of said element, the Catholic is gonna feel a pull to subvert it, such that it's not allowed to harden beyond certain bounds. I assume that's why JRRT felt a need to soften-the-edges of the "Orc Arc" near the end of RotK.

Del wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 16:12

Wosbald wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 13:10 +JMJ+

ChildOfGod wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:31 I was not on the lookout for inconsistencies with Tolkien's Christian worldview; though I did notice some "sympathy for the Orcs" here and there, which may be anti-Tolkien, so to speak.

[…]

It's impossible to avoid all whiff of Race Essentialism in Tolkien, since he wrote in the "grand, old style", and said Essentialism is an "essential" structuring element of such a narratival genealogy. IOW, it's baked into the DNA of this narrative tradition — inherited from the Pagans — and without which there would be no classical storytelling conventions at all.

But if one can't get rid of said element, the Catholic is gonna feel a pull to subvert it, such that it's not allowed to harden beyond certain bounds. I assume that's why JRRT felt a need to soften-the-edges of the "Orc Arc" near the end of RotK.

I'm needing a translation.

Seriously. What is "race essentialism"? Can this be explained in plain English? And where can I see it in Tolkien?

Tolkien had races of Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs. Each race has a different creation story, and even a different afterlife. It was all good and just within the mythology, just as angels and demons and men are properly different species in Christian mythology.

mcommini wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 14:01

Del wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 16:12

Wosbald wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 13:10 +JMJ+



It's impossible to avoid all whiff of Race Essentialism in Tolkien, since he wrote in the "grand, old style", and said Essentialism is an "essential" structuring element of such a narratival genealogy. IOW, it's baked into the DNA of this narrative tradition — inherited from the Pagans — and without which there would be no classical storytelling conventions at all.

But if one can't get rid of said element, the Catholic is gonna feel a pull to subvert it, such that it's not allowed to harden beyond certain bounds. I assume that's why JRRT felt a need to soften-the-edges of the "Orc Arc" near the end of RotK.

I'm needing a translation.

Seriously. What is "race essentialism"? Can this be explained in plain English? And where can I see it in Tolkien?

Tolkien had races of Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs. Each race has a different creation story, and even a different afterlife. It was all good and just within the mythology, just as angels and demons and men are properly different species in Christian mythology.

"Race essentialism" is Newspeak for "ethnic stereotyping". It is basically the idea that certain behaviors are "essential" (and in this case I believe we are approaching the definition of "essence" that in the Creed is often translated into English via Latin as "substance") to certain races rather than a result of culture.

And anyone accusing Tolkien of it has obviously never read The Silmarillion or The History of Middle Earth or Tolkien's own letter (153) where he reveals he was always conflicted about the Orcs because he didn't believe any rational creature could be irredeemably evil, not even the Orcs- or they have read it and are so blinded by Critical Race Theory that they can no longer see things as they are but view everything as having something to do with racism.

Stereotypes do exist in Tolkien, but just about every character we meet in his more famous works breaks the established stereotype- Bilbo and his cousins and even Sam break the "Hobbitish" mold, Aragorn and Faramir are far better than Men should be, Gimli is free of gold lust. The only race where people consistently fall within the stereotype is the Elves- and we find in the later prequels that the stereotypical "Good and Noble Elves" are not representative of the Elves, they're just the ones who survived to the Third Age. It's almost as if Tolkien was telling us that there is no "race essentialism", merely culture.

Del wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 14:42
New jargon does not create new concepts.