Why The Darkness

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FredS
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Post by FredS »

joegoat wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:10
FredS wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:02 Maybe you should try a denominational church.
My wife likes where we are. She wants kids programs. She knows people there. She doesn't want anything with a liturgy. I want us going to a church as a family. That's another topic though.
My flippant comment was actually about a larger point. That is that non-denoms are often centered around a charismatic pastor/preacher and they rise and fall with the popularity of said pastor. They're red hot for a while and then burn out when the pastor is found to be a flawed human. They meet in strip malls, gymnasiums, movie theaters (you know, dark places) because they're not stable enough to have their own buildings. Deep down, the parishioners know the place won't be around in 20 or 50 years so they won't pony up the money for a dedicated space.

Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much in to the OP and the church just need brighter light bulbs.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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Post by sweetandsour »

Our daughter in law and grandkids attend a church with lights off, fog machines, concert-style worship, etc. I don't throw rocks at it, but it's not for me. Their pastor repeatedly calls it being "out of the box". IMO he's the one that's in the so-called box.

Anyway where we attend church the lights are always dimmed during the song service, but then come up bright afterward, for the sermon. I've always presumed the lights are dimmed so that the wall screens can be seen better, as well as for highlighting the choir or whoever is on the stage. Then the lights come up so that everyone can read their Bibles, and look around and see who all is there.
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Perchance all the Teslas getting charged at the same time?
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joegoat
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Post by joegoat »

FredS wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:28
joegoat wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:10
FredS wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:02 Maybe you should try a denominational church.
My wife likes where we are. She wants kids programs. She knows people there. She doesn't want anything with a liturgy. I want us going to a church as a family. That's another topic though.
My flippant comment was actually about a larger point. That is that non-denoms are often centered around a charismatic pastor/preacher and they rise and fall with the popularity of said pastor. They're red hot for a while and then burn out when the pastor is found to be a flawed human. They meet in strip malls, gymnasiums, movie theaters (you know, dark places) because they're not stable enough to have their own buildings. Deep down, the parishioners know the place won't be around in 20 or 50 years so they won't pony up the money for a dedicated space.

Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much in to the OP and the church just need brighter light bulbs.
They have good bulbs. Haha I've seen them. From what I understand, this church is the result of a split. Two pastors of a strip mall church disagreed over something and two churches formed.
This kind of stuff is why I moved toward Orthodox Christianity.
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Post by joegoat »

sweetandsour wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:32 Our daughter in law and grandkids attend a church with lights off, fog machines, concert-style worship, etc. I don't throw rocks at it, but it's not for me. Their pastor repeatedly calls it being "out of the box". IMO he's the one that's in the so-called box.

Anyway where we attend church the lights are always dimmed during the song service, but then come up bright afterward, for the sermon. I've always presumed the lights are dimmed so that the wall screens can be seen better, as well as for highlighting the choir or whoever is on the stage. Then the lights come up so that everyone can read their Bibles, and look around and see who all is there.
I try to be of the mindset that God sees our hearts and knows our motives. None of us has every element of Christianity perfect. As Christ so abundantly relayed to us, God does not want us so focused on every minute detail that we lose sight of Him and become legalistic.
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FredS
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Post by FredS »

joegoat wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 08:40
sweetandsour wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:32 Our daughter in law and grandkids attend a church with lights off, fog machines, concert-style worship, etc. I don't throw rocks at it, but it's not for me. Their pastor repeatedly calls it being "out of the box". IMO he's the one that's in the so-called box.

Anyway where we attend church the lights are always dimmed during the song service, but then come up bright afterward, for the sermon. I've always presumed the lights are dimmed so that the wall screens can be seen better, as well as for highlighting the choir or whoever is on the stage. Then the lights come up so that everyone can read their Bibles, and look around and see who all is there.
I try to be of the mindset that God sees our hearts and knows our motives. None of us has every element of Christianity perfect. As Christ so abundantly relayed to us, God does not want us so focused on every minute detail that we lose sight of Him and become legalistic.
I think you've both got it right. Big stones, little stones.

The fog machine though . . . that could easily turn in to a big stone if it draws attention to the wrong thing. Although, the early church often worshipped in smokey, dimly lit houses and even caves.
If we ever get to heaven boys, it ain't because we ain't done nothin' wrong. - Kris Kristofferson
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Post by Del »

Catholics and Orthodox still incorporate incense in our liturgical worship.

I just did a Bible word-search for incense using BibleGateway.com. Many pages of individual verses, from Exodus to Revelation.

God commanded that an ornate altar of burning incense be placed in the "Holy of Holies," before the Ark of the Covenant, in the Tabernacle room of the Sanctuary.
Exodus 30:1-8 wrote: The Altar of Incense

30 “Make an altar of acacia wood for burning incense. 2 It is to be square, a cubit long and a cubit wide, and two cubits high—its horns of one piece with it. 3 Overlay the top and all the sides and the horns with pure gold, and make a gold molding around it. 4 Make two gold rings for the altar below the molding—two on each of the opposite sides—to hold the poles used to carry it. 5 Make the poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 6 Put the altar in front of the curtain that shields the ark of the covenant law—before the atonement cover that is over the tablets of the covenant law—where I will meet with you.

7 “Aaron must burn fragrant incense on the altar every morning when he tends the lamps. 8 He must burn incense again when he lights the lamps at twilight so incense will burn regularly before the Lord for the generations to come.
The priest Zechariah was serving at this altar when Gabriel appeared to him, telling that his son (John the Baptist) would become the prophet of the Messiah.
Luke 1:8-11 wrote: 8 Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.
A large part of "Revelation" is devoted to the vision of what is happening before the eyes of Heaven as we perform our worship of the Divine Liturgy on Earth. We finally see, revealed in Scripture, why God commanded incense in our worship, so long ago. Incense is the incarnation of our prayers.
Revelation 5:8 wrote: 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.
Revelation 8:3-4 wrote: 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

Is this the biblical reason for those fog machines?
Last edited by Del on 13 Mar 2023, 11:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Del
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Post by Del »

FredS wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 08:59
The fog machine though . . . that could easily turn in to a big stone if it draws attention to the wrong thing. Although, the early church often worshipped in smokey, dimly lit houses and even caves.
For many centuries after the Apostolic Era of persecution, churches were still dimly lit by candles and oil lamps. Gothic architecture technology required thick walls and small windows.

Modern lighting is.... modern.
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Why The Darkness

Post by tuttle »

joegoat wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 06:10 She doesn't want anything with a liturgy.
I know what you're saying here.

But there is no such thing as a church without a liturgy.

Yes, I'm pedantic.
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Post by coco »

Because it's more like a movie theater

Because it's more like a dance club

Because it's more like a concert
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