Christian Pipe Smokers

I don't know what to make of this. I just find it fascinating at the moment.

Per the BBC:
Coronation cross will include 'crucifixion relics'

The BBC wrote:Fragments said to be from the cross on which Jesus was crucified will be included in a newly made Cross of Wales used at the head of the coronation procession in Westminster Abbey.

The relics of what is known as the True Cross were given to King Charles by Pope Francis, as a coronation gift.

Without (at least initially) getting into the credibility of relics, giving fragments of the True Cross to the sovereign governor of a breakaway church seems a tad out of the ordinary. Especially if the gift is given in honor for the specific ceremony wherein Charles symbolically becomes the Head of the Anglican church.

I'm not saying I think it's bad or anything. Just kind of weird, historically/politically speaking.

+JMJ+

I dunno. AFAIK, Catholics/Orthodox gifting and regifting relics and whatnot is not w/o precedent, and neither is transferring custodianship to Nation-States, tribal leaders, secular institutions, etc.

There are enough true cross relics to build a galleon, fill it with true cross relics, and sail it across the Atlantic to disperse among the faithful.

+JMJ+

Biff wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 13:59 There are enough true cross relics to build a galleon, fill it with true cross relics, and sail it across the Atlantic to disperse among the faithful.

This ain't Indiana Jones, okay?

tuttle wrote: ↑20 Apr 2023, 12:59 I don't know what to make of this. I just find it fascinating at the moment.

Per the BBC:
Coronation cross will include 'crucifixion relics'

The BBC wrote:Fragments said to be from the cross on which Jesus was crucified will be included in a newly made Cross of Wales used at the head of the coronation procession in Westminster Abbey.

The relics of what is known as the True Cross were given to King Charles by Pope Francis, as a coronation gift.

Without (at least initially) getting into the credibility of relics, giving fragments of the True Cross to the sovereign governor of a breakaway church seems a tad out of the ordinary. Especially if the gift is given in honor for the specific ceremony wherein Charles symbolically becomes the Head of the Anglican church.

I'm not saying I think it's bad or anything. Just kind of weird, historically/politically speaking.

As Wozzie said, sharing relics across lines of schism is a sign of ecumenical goodwill. We all know that Christians should all be One.

St. Peter's Basilica in Rome (originally built by Emperor Constantine the Great) was established on five major relics.

1) The High Altar is located above the tomb of St. Peter. Peter's tomb was unmarked but well remembered by early Christians. The tomb was re-discovered by excavation and verified by a preponderance of circumstantial evidence 1950.

2) The spear tip of St. Longinus; the spear that pierced the side of Jesus after He died on the Cross.

3) The skull of St. Mark the Evangelist, who was sent by Peter to establish the Church in Alexandria, Egypt. Pope St. John Paul the Great returned this great relic to the Patriarch of Alexandria, leader of the Coptic Church in Egypt and throughout the world. The Oriental Orthodox Church made schism with the Universal Church after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D.

4) The Veil of Veronica. This is not recorded in the Gospels, but a woman named Veronica offered her veil to Jesus so he could wipe his face as he carried His Cross. The blood, sweat, and grime is said to have left an image of Jesus's Face on the veil, perhaps miraculously. The Holy Face is no longer recognizable on the Veil, and perhaps it never was. Yet this relic remains immensely sacred, simply as an item from the eternal event of Jesus's Passion.

5)The relics of the True Cross, discovered by St. Helena (Mother of Constantine the Great), who pilgrimaged with the authority of her son, the Emperor, to the Holy Land after religious persecution ended. By miracles and astounding chances, she discovered the hiding place of the relics of the Crucifixion: Three crosses, nails, the sign of Pontius Pilate (INRI). After a prayer asking God to reveal the truth, a miracle of healing after touching the three crosses revealed which one was the Cross of Christ.
=======================================

My feelings are not clear (Star Wars reference) on this most sacred gift of two splinters from the True Cross from the current Pontiff to the new King of England. Bu as everyone seems to be acting in good faith, I shall humbly accept this as a Very Good Thing.

We who have been Christian for 20 centuries still have these

I have questions. I would like to say first, however, that I genuinely mean no disrespect. Please don't find offense. I mean none by them.

What's the Catholic take on relics? I'll shoot straight on my end...If it's indeed a piece of the cross upon which Jesus died, then it's a special piece of wood as a historical item. But for me, that's as far as it goes. I don't view it as holy. Only God is holy. The cross is just a piece of wood. It bears no power, no mystique other than what man ascribes to it, no healing properties, etc. Outside of the person that was nailed to it, it's just a piece of wood. Without the Spirit of God, the Ark of the Covenant was just an ornate box. It would be no tragedy if it fell into history lost.

I will 100% admit that my understanding of the Catholic view of relics is mostly derived from movies.

jmg wrote: ↑22 Apr 2023, 16:42 I have questions. I would like to say first, however, that I genuinely mean no disrespect. Please don't find offense. I mean none by them.

What's the Catholic take on relics? I'll shoot straight on my end...If it's indeed a piece of the cross upon which Jesus died, then it's a special piece of wood as a historical item. But for me, that's as far as it goes. I don't view it as holy. Only God is holy. The cross is just a piece of wood. It bears no power, no mystique other than what man ascribes to it, no healing properties, etc. Outside of the person that was nailed to it, it's just a piece of wood. Without the Spirit of God, the Ark of the Covenant was just an ornate box. It would be no tragedy if it fell into history lost.

I will 100% admit that my understanding of the Catholic view of relics is mostly derived from movies.

I'll think about this and try to offer some insight tomorrow.

For now, I'll share an insight from Chesterton: Christians preserve things. We preserve even pagan things. Rome is still populated with art and statues and idols and temples from the pagan era, even as it is overwhelming with Christian history. Occasionally, there is a wave of destruction in parts of Christendom, overrun by iconoclasts, Moslems, Puritans, or secular zealots (French Revolution, communists, modern American statue toppers).... that's just barbaric. We preserve memories and artifacts. That's why we have a Bible, after all. We saved the early writings; we copied and shared them.

When God touches a material artifact, it becomes sacred and it remains sacred. The Ark of the Covenant, the Empty Tomb, and even a tiny splinter of the True Cross do not lose their value simply because some centuries have passed. Christ is eternally hanging on His Cross. Christ is eternally rising from His Tomb.

Meanwhile, there is nothing of Hollywood drama associated with relics. You can disregard whatever the movies said. But sometimes there are miracles, as when sick people were healed by Peter's shadow and a dead man was raised by touching Elisha's bones. Miracles do not happen by our command, but on occasions when God wants to give us some message (in these examples, God wants to verify that Peter and Elisha are true teachers of His words).

All the same, I respect that the American descendants of the Calvinist tradition find it hard to relate to the ancient Christian practice of veneration. The Orthodox devotion of icons seems bizarre; the Catholic practice of sharing relics of saints seems macabre.

There's an art museum in Kansas City that has a fingerbone of John the Baptist.

+JMJ+

tuttle wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 06:15 There's an art museum in Kansas City that has a fingerbone of John the Baptist.

Cool. As in "Cool in the News".

Wosbald wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 09:52 +JMJ+

tuttle wrote: ↑24 Apr 2023, 06:15 There's an art museum in Kansas City that has a fingerbone of John the Baptist.

Cool. As in "Cool in the News".

Nah. That's old news. I saw it like 10 years ago.