Rapture

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Biff
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Post by Biff »

Have a gander at this essay, let me know what you think.

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Post by AdamZ »

That’s somewhat all-over the place. The author basically implies that his premillennialist dispensational eschatological view is a requirement for salvation - or at the very least (according to the conclusion section) that anyone who subscribes to a postmillenial view is not saved. I’m not a postmillenialist, but to make this jump is painting with a very broad brush. There are many godly men who hold to postmillenial eschatology. Also, the article is presented as an either/or juxtaposition. There is a third view that is ignored here - amillenialsm.

Regardless of whether one believes in premillennialism, postmillenialism, or amillenialism, you can be saved and believe in any of them. Obviously they can’t all be correct, but nobody is going to be denied entrance into heaven because they subscribed to an incorrect eschatological view.
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I don't believe in a "pre-tribulational rapture." The Apostles did not teach that Jesus would come again -- but not until after He comes half-way and takes all the good people first. This theology was invented in the 1830's, it was preached to American Christians by John Nelson Darby, and this theology remains a uniquely American phenomenon to this day.

But we will all die soon enough, and face our particular Judgment. So whether there will be a Rapture before the Tribulation, or if we have been living in the Tribulation for a long time already -- we still have to live like we could die at any moment.

If we put Rapture aside, what the article is really arguing against is the theology of "once saved, always saved." I don't know if there are many who actually believe that anyway. The Gospels are painfully clear in Jesus' own words that "many who cry out LORD!, LORD! will not enter the Kingdom of God." Jesus Himself is clear: accepting Jesus as your LORD is not sufficient, by itself. (This is repeated many times in the New Testament, by Jesus and Paul and John.)
======================

The author's devoted ignorance of Church history has me questioning his authority to write on such matters. He seems convinced that the early Church persecuted heretics! It was nearly always the zealous heretics who made numerous martyrs of the Apostolic Christians.
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Post by Jocose »

:text-deletetopic:
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Post by AdamZ »

Jocose wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 16:01:text-deletetopic:
Why though?
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Post by Del »

AdamZ wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 17:31
Jocose wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 16:01:text-deletetopic:
Why though?
You speak as one who has just joined CPS within last week.
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Post by AdamZ »

Del wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 18:14
AdamZ wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 17:31
Jocose wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 16:01:text-deletetopic:
Why though?
You speak as one who has just joined CPS within last week.
Haven’t we all? :laughing-jumpingpurple:
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Biff
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Post by Biff »

Del wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 15:56 I don't believe in a "pre-tribulational rapture." The Apostles did not teach that Jesus would come again -- but not until after He comes half-way and takes all the good people first. This theology was invented in the 1830's, it was preached to American Christians by John Nelson Darby, and this theology remains a uniquely American phenomenon to this day.
Jesus taught that he would 'rapture' His church.
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).

The Apostles teacch that Jesus would 'rapture' His church
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [those who have died], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also, which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord [Jesus Christ had personally told Paul these things], that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [go up before] them which are asleep [have died].

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thes 4:13-18).

Paul also wrote: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor 15:51-53)

To Titus, Paul wrote: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).

To the Thessalonians Paul wrote: “…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” 1 Thes 1:9-10).
“The wrath to come” refers to the 7-year Tribulation, which will happen soon after the Rapture.

The Apostle John repeats the truth that our bodies will be changed into glorious eternal bodies, and he makes clear the reason we are told about the nearness of the coming Rapture of the Saints: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure” (1John 3:2-3).

We know that we will be called up in the Rapture before the Tribulation begins because Jesus said to John in His message to the Church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth [the Tribulation]. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown” (Rev 3:10-11).

Matthew taught that Jesus said: Of the time of the Rapture, it would be like the times of Noah and Lot, that the world would be just going along as normal. “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” (Matt 24:38-42).

Luke records likewise: “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed…. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left” (Luke 17:28-30, 34-36).

The claim that 'rapture' was ‘invented’ in 1828 by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren is absolutely false! Deniers call it the ‘secret’ Rapture doctrine. The only thing secret about the Rapture is the day it will occur. Nothing else about it is secret as if done in darkness or the shadows. The understanding of the truth and nature of the Rapture was well known to the Early Church.

The ECF teach that Jesus would 'rapture' His church:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France; he wrote,
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, [then] “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

This is obviously the writing of a believer who understood the truth of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture followed by the 7-year Tribulation. Irenaeus was only one generation removed from the Apostle John’s writing of The Revelation; he believed and wrote of the Rapture, using the same phrase Paul used, “caught up”! He quoted Paul in “caught up,” and he quoted Jesus from Matt 24: “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) was a bishop of the church in Carthage. In Treatises of Cyprian, he wrote about the Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible…. Do you not [don’t you] give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was the bishop of Nisibis. He wrote:
“Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!”…. For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins…”

Obviously, we are reading the writings of several early Church Fathers who understood and believed the truth of the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church followed by the Tribulation.

The early Church Fathers clearly believed the truth of the Rapture, but during these same ‘early’ years, heresy was slithering in as well. The understanding of the truths of Salvation by God’s Grace and of the Rapture were soon lost along with the clear teaching of the Book of Revelation and the Tribulation. Understanding of the End Times began to be seen as allegory; this heresy originated with Origen (185-254 A.D.) and was further expanded by Augustine (354-420 A.D.), known as the ‘father of Roman Catholicism.’

The understanding of the Rapture was lost to the Church with the emergence and growth of Roman Catholicism; the view that Revelation and End-Times Prophecy should be seen as allegory became dominant. Rome began to believe and teach that the Church has taken the place of Israel and all the promises to Israel are, instead, intended for the Church, the great Mother Church, the Roman Catholic Church. The truth of the Rapture was lost, and so was the truth of our Salvation by God’s Grace alone, through our faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on His Word alone, the Bible. Roman Catholicism denied(s) all of this.

Now the OP was not meant to support the rapture doctrine but rather to engage the reader with some thoughtful interaction on the 'who' of rapture. But this post is already too long. Maybe I'll pick it up later. If you're lucky.
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Del
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Post by Del »

Biff wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 08:16The early Church Fathers clearly believed the truth of the Rapture, but during these same ‘early’ years, heresy was slithering in as well. The understanding of the truths of Salvation by God’s Grace and of the Rapture were soon lost along with the clear teaching of the Book of Revelation and the Tribulation. Understanding of the End Times began to be seen as allegory; this heresy originated with Origen (185-254 A.D.) and was further expanded by Augustine (354-420 A.D.), known as the ‘father of Roman Catholicism.’

The understanding of the Rapture was lost to the Church with the emergence and growth of Roman Catholicism; the view that Revelation and End-Times Prophecy should be seen as allegory became dominant. Rome began to believe and teach that the Church has taken the place of Israel and all the promises to Israel are, instead, intended for the Church, the great Mother Church, the Roman Catholic Church. The truth of the Rapture was lost, and so was the truth of our Salvation by God’s Grace alone, through our faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on His Word alone, the Bible. Roman Catholicism denied(s) all of this.

Now the OP was not meant to support the rapture doctrine but rather to engage the reader with some thoughtful interaction on the 'who' of rapture. But this post is already too long. Maybe I'll pick it up later. If you're lucky.
Catholics do not consider St. Augustine to be "the Father of Roman Catholicism." He is numbered among the Early Church Fathers, contemporary with St. Jerome. Late 300's, when the canon of inspired Scriptures were discerned as we know them today.

Jesus established the Apostolic Church. Yes, there will be a Rapture when Jesus returns, and a General Judgment, and the creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth. No one knows when this will happen.

John Nelson Darby (1830's) is the father of Dispensational theology, with it's millenarian teachings and "pre-Tribulational" rapture. It is a peculiarly America version of Christian belief, like Fundamentalism. The Universal Church-Throughout-the-World hasn't heard of these, except where American missionaries have spread it.

Just as the Apostles and Early Church Fathers, I don't believe in pre-Trib rapture. But I also believe that it doesn't matter, one way or the other. We are still called to live out our Christian faith the same, either way. Avoid sin and live holiness in love for Our Lord, because we all face judgment at any moment.

If thinking of Rapture inspires you to live in holiness, then carry on in peace!
(Friendship with Mary and the saints helps me to carry on.)
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Post by tuttle »

you forgot the charts
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