Rapture

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Biff
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Post by Biff »

tuttle wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 10:49 you forgot the charts
:mrgreen: :doh: I'll get right on that
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Post by joegoat »

Every decade or so somebody writes something that is spread like chaff in the wind and without fail gets people up on their roofs, waiting for Jesus.
I grew up being taught all christians, living and dead, will be raptured pre tribulation. I'm not fully convinced of that. Revelation is a very complicated book of Scripture. The denominations that say they take all Scripture literally often trip over some things here and there, but do a proper faceplant (feet over the head) when they reach Revelation. I believe Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead, but haven't quite figured out where the rapture falls
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Post by Del »

joegoat wrote: 20 Jun 2022, 23:32 Every decade or so somebody writes something that is spread like chaff in the wind and without fail gets people up on their roofs, waiting for Jesus.
I grew up being taught all christians, living and dead, will be raptured pre tribulation. I'm not fully convinced of that. Revelation is a very complicated book of Scripture. The denominations that say they take all Scripture literally often trip over some things here and there, but do a proper faceplant (feet over the head) when they reach Revelation. I believe Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead, but haven't quite figured out where the rapture falls
I am deeply troubled by that gnostic mood which believes that there are "secrets" hidden in the Bible (and especially in the New Testament), and that with sufficient squinting at the Scriptures we can discover knowledge that even the Apostles did not know when they wrote it.

St. Paul didn't give much attention to Rapture. His "end times" emphasis was always focused on the Resurrection of the Dead. As far as I can tell, Paul only mentions Rapture once, and that is in his brief summary of the Second Coming and the Resurrection of the Dead.

Biblical scholars agree that the first (earliest) writing in the New Testament is St. Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians:
I Thess 4:13-18 wrote: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
It wasn't until 1830's America that an Irish immigrant preacher developed an elaborate theology separating the event of Rapture from the Second Coming and the Resurrection of the Dead. And even this wouldn't bother me, except that it has led to a popular enthusiasm for gleaning the Bible for clues as to how soon and exactly what date these events will occur.... and many false preachers sell many books and make movies, enriching themselves by distracting the faithful.

I recommend that those should all be ignored. Focus on our relationship with the living Christ and serving the mission of His Church.
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Post by Biff »

Del wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 08:50 I recommend that those should all be ignored. Focus on our relationship with the living Christ and serving the mission of His Church.
Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 24:42-44
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
He expects & commands us to be watching for His return.

So does Peter:
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
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Post by joegoat »

Biff wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:33
Del wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 08:50 I recommend that those should all be ignored. Focus on our relationship with the living Christ and serving the mission of His Church.
Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 24:42-44
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
He expects & commands us to be watching for His return.

So does Peter:
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
So toss out evangelism, service, and outreach? Forget about gathering christians together for Holy Communion and worship? Are we supposed to just sit out in our yard with binoculars then?
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Post by Biff »

joegoat wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 19:20
Biff wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:33
Del wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 08:50 I recommend that those should all be ignored. Focus on our relationship with the living Christ and serving the mission of His Church.
Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 24:42-44
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
He expects & commands us to be watching for His return.

So does Peter:
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
So toss out evangelism, service, and outreach? Forget about gathering christians together for Holy Communion and worship? Are we supposed to just sit out in our yard with binoculars then?
That's a bit of a stretch.
Here I stand. I can do no other. :flags-wavegreatbritain: :flags-canada:
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Post by joegoat »

Biff wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 19:44
joegoat wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 19:20
Biff wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:33
Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 24:42-44
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
He expects & commands us to be watching for His return.

So does Peter:
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
So toss out evangelism, service, and outreach? Forget about gathering christians together for Holy Communion and worship? Are we supposed to just sit out in our yard with binoculars then?
That's a bit of a stretch.
Not by much if you take those two passages at face value, without the context of Scripture around them.
We definitely have a purpose on this earth aside from staring at the sky.
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Post by tuttle »

I think it's a matter of emphasis. I certainly have my own view points both firm and fuzzy on the end times, etc. and I agree we shouldn't ignore what Scripture doesn't ignore, and yet I think we can find a balance. I think what Del is getting at is an overemphasis on some in that strain that views everything through a certain lens.

That doesn't just go with end times theories either. There are lots of interesting nuggets of truth found in Scripture where we have to begin to theorize beyond what Scripture reveals. That's all okay (and fun!) but it's not very healthy when we overemphasize them and rewire our entire hermeneutic around them.
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Post by Del »

Biff wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 18:33
Del wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 08:50 I recommend that those should all be ignored. Focus on our relationship with the living Christ and serving the mission of His Church.
Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 24:42-44
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
He expects & commands us to be watching for His return.

So does Peter:
1 Peter 4:7
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
I don't see any tension here. As I focus on my relationship with Christ ("prayer"), I can beg Him to come again (and be merciful).
I can also beg for the grace to grow in holiness so I may have a happy death and be with Him. Soon, one way or the other.

Meanwhile, we still have the Great Commission to fulfill. The Church Militant must share the good news and convert all the nations. Not to mention the constant work of sustaining God's truth and correcting the errors in our own church/culture/nation.

As much as I might enjoy evangelizing to and correcting those who believe in dispensational pre-tribulation rapture (and other biblical syntheses run amok), these novel American-Christian errors aren't hurting anybody much. Doomsday cults aren't so common anymore.

Meanwhile, we live in a pagan world where many people believe that killing babies and sexually mutilating children are positive goods worth committing acts of terrorism to defend. That's where I spend my evangelical zeal.
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