The Prodigal Son and Redemption

Hovannes · Post by **Hovannes** » 13 Jul 2023, 16:16

This is way deeper than the obvious, or is it a mystery?
I'm trying to wrap my brain around this.
Your thoughts, please?

jruegg · Post by **jruegg** » 13 Jul 2023, 17:38

Could you please be a bit more specific?

Hovannes · Post by **Hovannes** » 13 Jul 2023, 21:13

How does the story of the Prodigal Son see Redemption?
It doesn't appear to fit.
The son is redeemed by his own works---travelling back to his homeland and confessing to his father, who of course welcomes and restores him to the family, but the son has to act in order to be redeemed. That doesn't fit the popular narrative.
Then there is the father, God, who anticipates the son's return as the all knowing God would---so would the son be redeemed anyway if he stayed in the foreign land and starved to death?
Also, since Christ is the Redeemer, how does the sinful son's character foreshadow Christ's, who is our sinless redeemer?

FredS · Post by **FredS** » 14 Jul 2023, 05:27

Is that really "works"? Turning towards the father and confessing? Perhaps God does offer redemption if we stay in a foreign land and starve - if our backs are turned and we're actively ignoring Him - but what good does that do? We won't know until we turn around and look. I think we need only to make the turn and we'll be seen, but of course the father in the parable couldn't see if his son had turned from far away so he had to travel back home. The traveling part is simply added to make it relatable on our human scale.

Also, the sinful son's character foreshadows us, not the Christ.

Hovannes · Post by **Hovannes** » 14 Jul 2023, 06:58

FredS wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 05:27 Is that really "works"? Turning towards the father and confessing? Perhaps God does offer redemption if we stay in a foreign land and starve - if our backs are turned and we're actively ignoring Him - but what good does that do? We won't know until we turn around and look. I think we need only to make the turn and we'll be seen, but of course the father in the parable couldn't see if his son had turned from far away so he had to travel back home. The traveling part is simply added to make it relatable on our human scale.

Also, the sinful son's character foreshadows us, not the Christ.

m
I agree with what you say, however the son, in the foreign land is near death. The physical trip home would be dangerous as well as humiliating and his desperate condition obviously supersedes all that.
Of course it makes sense that the son's character foreshadows us, but the act of redemption is where I get confused. The story about his other son drives home the point that redemption is the sole gift of the father to the prodigal son, but that is seldom mentioned in sermons where the issue of justice seems to be the gist.

I don't know why this is a burr under my saddle right now, but I figure you guys would set me straight.

Wosbald · Post by **Wosbald** » 14 Jul 2023, 07:58

+JMJ+

I think a main point (whether or not it is the main point seems an always-dicey issue with the Bible, and doubly-so with the parables) is not so much that the Son didn't have to "do anything" in order to be forgiven, but rather, that the Father didn't have do "do anything" in order to forgive.

IOW, the Father didn't owe anything to his own Justice. There wasn't something hanging over his head — something that had to be "satisfied" before he was in-the-clear to forgive. Rather, he just kicks back at the ranch, waits patiently, and flat-out forgives. Party-time, end-of-story.

FredS · Post by **FredS** » 14 Jul 2023, 09:04

Hovannes wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 06:58 I agree with what you say, however the son, in the foreign land is near death. The physical trip home would be dangerous as well as humiliating and his desperate condition obviously supersedes all that.

Well, the further astray one goes, the bigger sh*7 show one tends to make of their life. Actions have consequences quite apart from being redeemed by the Lord.

As Wosbald wrote, there's always a party when a loved one comes home, and the further astray they were, the bigger the party. I imagine the angels dance a little more when a 45 year old junkie gets clean than when a 14 year old boy confesses to snatching a pack of gum.

Hovannes · Post by **Hovannes** » 14 Jul 2023, 09:34

Wosbald wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 07:58 +JMJ+

I think a main point (whether or not it is the main point seems an always-dicey issue with the Bible, and doubly-so with the parables) is not so much that the Son didn't have to "do anything" in order to be forgiven, but rather, that the Father didn't have do "do anything" in order to forgive.

IOW, the Father didn't owe anything to his own Justice. There wasn't something hanging over his head — something that had to be "satisfied" before he was in-the-clear to forgive. Rather, he just kicks back at the ranch, waits patiently, and flat-out forgives. Party-time, end-of-story.

Of course, but the obedient son doesn't see it that way, does he?
So what does this say? That everyone is a sinner in need of redemption, natch, but when does that redemption happen? It doesn't in Scripture.
We are left hanging.
Does the obedient son get over it, goes inside (takes action) and parties with his bro? Or does he become disobedient because that's more fun and seemingly no accountability(goes full on Hunter Biden)
contrary to what he previously believed?
We aren't told.
It's a rabbit hole. Or a mystery.

FredS · Post by **FredS** » 14 Jul 2023, 10:28

The obedient son lived a well ordered life of service. That has it's own rewards.

While I'm certainly not a paragon of clean living, I can relate this story to my own family. My brothers and I grew up in a stable household and mostly stayed on the straight and narrow. My cousins did not. I was jealous of them because they had quarter midgets and ran around at all hours of the night. They were jealous of us because we had the same two parents at home every night and lived in the same house for more than a year at a time. I live a boring but comfortable life with a wife of 40 years, a pack of kids and grandkids (who I suppose love me), and enough money to get by on. My cousins are either dead or just as well as. The oldest died of a bad liver at 50. The youngest was murdered by a drug dealer at about the same age. The second oldest is blind and can hardly walk. The third has been in and out of jail his whole life and is now living in his car and begging me for money. They're both still living it up with whiskey and drugs.

Yet, we're all in need of redemption. The child of my oldest cousin and my youngest cousin himself told me they'd found Jesus, but they were each pretty far gone by then and they were not healed of their ailments and addictions. They paid a price for their "fun" living. Like the prodigal son who was racked with hunger and humiliation.

Del · Post by **Del** » 14 Jul 2023, 10:55

We throw around a lot of Christian jargon, and we often fail to define or understand the words we are saying. Salvation is the worst offender word.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, it is not the prodigal who is the Christ-figure. It is the Father who is Christ-like. The prodigal son (and the older son) stand for versions of us.

Let's talk about Christian jargon and define some terms.

Redemption: To redeem means to pay the ransom that sets another free. It is well-understood in every theological tradition that Christ's obedient self-sacrifice for our sins was one of the most important works that Christ accomplished on the Cross. In Calvinist tradition, this is the only thing that Christ accomplished on the Cross -- and they have written the most words about it. But Apostolic Christians believe this too: Christ redeemed us by His Blood.

Repentance: To repent is to turn away from sin and turn oneself toward God. Both John the Baptist and Jesus traveled and preached the urgent need to repent. We need to repent.

This is a "work," broadly defined as any act of one's own will. But whatever your theological tradition says about works, you still have to repent for yourself. Jesus cannot repent for you. Only you can decide whether you will live as a sinner or live as a saint. And if we are living as sinners, Christ begs us, "Repent!" Reject sin, turn your face toward God and ask for forgiveness.

Salvation: To be saved means turning away from sin (repentance), accepting Christ's forgiveness (redemption), and living in relationship with God (holiness). Salvation is a multi-step process of repentance, forgiveness, redemption, living in holiness, death, personal judgment, (purification,) heaven, Resurrection, and General Judgment. Different Christian traditions think and talk about "salvation" in different ways, but generally all of the pieces are there.

Happiness: Happiness is a word worthy of its own thread to fully define. For now, I want to focus on the wisdom of St. Augustine: "You made us for Yourself, O God. And our hearts are restless until we rest in You." Loving and serving God is not a burden. Working and living to sustain our relationship with God is the only thing that gives us happiness that is lasting and cannot be taken away.

Happy is such a joyful and playful word! I believe that God guided our very language so that the thing we most desire should be expressed as an easy, joyful, and playful thing.

Back to the Prodigal Son:

The son was comfortable at home, but restless. He insulted his father, took his inheritance and wasted it on quick pleasures until he was broke and broken.

Meanwhile the Father scanned the horizon daily, hoping for his son to come home.

The son returned home and begged for forgiveness (but not for undeserved restoration). He begged for a small mercy -- "Let me work for you as a hired hand. I don't deserve anything more."

But the Father was so overjoyed to have his son back! He restored his lost son to a glory higher than the position he had left. A cloak, a ring, and a feast!

This part of the parable recalls the Sin of Adam and the Redemption of Christ. Adam enjoyed friendship with God, which he lost for himself and for us all. But Christ restored us to a position higher than Adam. By taking on our human nature and by offering us His Body and Blood, we who are of His Kingdom can participate in His Divine Nature. More than mere friends of God, we are sons and daughters of God.

This unpacks the biblical paradox of St. Paul: "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more." God allows sin so He can fix our errors better than we were before. It's never a zero-sum game with God. And yet He does this without destroying our freedom. All we have to do is repent.