Christian Pipe Smokers

When were Mary and Joseph married---not just betrothed, but formally married according to Jewish custom/law?
Was it before the Annunciation? Or before, or after the Visitation? I think it would have to have been before Gabrial appeared to Joseph since Joseph was contemplating divorce, right? But was that before or after the Visitation?
I'm confused. I cannot remember what the good Sisters of the Holy Cross taught me 65 years ago, but I remember having the discussion.

I thought you learned Theologians might know the answer.

+JMJ+

Hovannes wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 15:43 … I think it would have to have been before Gabrial appeared to Joseph since Joseph was contemplating divorce, right? …

[…]

I don't think so, since the angel sez, "Don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife".

Wosbald wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 16:03 +JMJ+

Hovannes wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 15:43 … I think it would have to have been before Gabrial appeared to Joseph since Joseph was contemplating divorce, right? …

[…]

I don't think so, since the angel sez, "Don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife".

So he planned to marry, then divorce her?
This is confusing.

Hovannes wrote: ↑26 Oct 2023, 06:11

Wosbald wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 16:03 +JMJ+

Hovannes wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 15:43 … I think it would have to have been before Gabrial appeared to Joseph since Joseph was contemplating divorce, right? …

[…]

I don't think so, since the angel sez, "Don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife".

So he planned to marry, then divorce her?
This is confusing.

The translated words are a bit sketchy, along with our knowledge of Jewish laws and customs at the time.

It's pretty clear in Luke's gospel that they were not married at the time of the Annunciation. They were "betrothed," meaning contracted to be married. There was likely a public, legal arrangement involving an exchange of promises and arrangement of properties among the families.

So I have always taken that "divorce" is a translation of a Greek word describing a Jewish process for "breaking the engagement contract."

I'm not sure about the takes on this. We're confusing our customs for theirs and translations that dont really translate I'm not saying I'm right on all the details, but "betrothed" in the context of ancient Jewish marital law does not mean "engaged" or "affianced" in the modern sense.

Ancient jews recognized three different steps in a marriage: betrothal, home-taking, and consummation. Betrothal was a legally binding marriage. In other words, they were married upon their betrothal. Married from that point on regardless of whether they completed any additional steps. Boinking not required, if you'll excuse the phrase.

Mary was Joseph's wife when Gabriel announced to her and that's why Joseph was so hurt by her pregnancy...they were married but he did not yet have the right to consummate the marriage because he had not yet taken her into his home and thus he considered divorce.

Upon being told she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit, Joseph took her into his home. Step two. But he did not yet consummate the marriage, hence Mary's status remaining essentially the same upon their trek to Bethlehem months later, about which it is written that their status remained "betrothed."

And thus the difficulty in Matthew 1:25.. "and knew her not until she had brought forth her first born son..." of course it doesn't prove anything one way or the other, but it does show the importance of the steps.

Hugo Drax wrote: ↑26 Oct 2023, 07:57 a smart and cogent treatise

Wish you come 'round more often Hugo.

Thank you, Hugo!
So this begs the question, when did Mary visit her cousin Elizabeth?
Could it be before Joseph found out?
Or after?
With Joseph, being Mary's protector, it seems unlikely that he would be on board with her taking such a trip in her condition.
If before, then Mary I imagine she would be showing by the time she returned to Nazareth and that would precede Gabrial's appearance in Joseph's dream.

Hovannes wrote: ↑26 Oct 2023, 11:12 Thank you, Hugo!
So this begs the question, when did Mary visit her cousin Elizabeth?
Could it be before Joseph found out?
Or after?
With Joseph, being Mary's protector, it seems unlikely that he would be on board with her taking such a trip in her condition.
If before, then Mary I imagine she would be showing by the time she returned to Nazareth and that would precede Gabrial's appearance in Joseph's dream.

Oh, I think she visited before. Here's my take from the texts, and please realize it's my take and I don't have the least amount of proof other than piecing together what I believe to be the time line.

Gabriel tells Mary that it is now her barren relatives sixth month of pregnancy, right? Well, when the Angel Gabriel left, Mary was pregnant. Moved by the Holy Spirit, she immediately sets out in haste for a hill town in Judea to visit Elizabeth.

Mary stays "about three months" and then returns to Nazareth. So Elizabeth would have given birth to John the Baptist before Elizabeth left.

So Mary returns to Nazareth VISIBLY pregnant because she's three months in to her own pregnancy. Out of her husband's eyesight for three months and she comes home with a Jesus-shaped baby bump. Can't blame Joseph for being traumatized, but all honor to him for believing. The model for husbands and fathers, in my opinion. Really wish we knew more about him. He was a mensch.

Disclaimer that these are only my beliefs based on the textual clues my poor stupid brain could catch. I'm sure I could be wrong. I'm open to being wrong, in fact.

Sure sounds good to me, Hugo.