mcommini wrote: ↑03 Jan 2024, 10:40
Would you believe we are highly suspicious of the apparitions as well? And its not us (well, not all of us) being mean or contrary. There is a whole laundry list of things associated with your post- schism saints and miracles and apparitions that are not only foreign to the Orthodox experience but sometimes run directly counter to it.
You Orthodox are suspicious to the point of paranoia, and you are proud of it. We count that as one of your delightful little quirks.
mcommini wrote: ↑03 Jan 2024, 10:40Stigmata would be an example of something foreign- some of us really like what Francis of Assissi had to do and say but pause before suggesting he might be a Saint out of communion like Isaac of Nineveh because in 2000 years of Church history we have never had a single case of stigmata. It's a sign, sure, but of what?
I can relate to that. What the heck does oil dripping from an icon mean?
My personal opinion is that God gives us what we need, in a way that we can understand (after time, perhaps). American Pentecostals are awash in Tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit. They actively seek these gifts and miracles, and God grants them abundantly. If I didn't have the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ, and the ability to receive my Savior in the Eucharist, and access to forgiveness through sacramental Confession -- I would seek gifts and miracles too.
mcommini wrote: ↑03 Jan 2024, 10:40Your Marian apparitions are all over the place, but by and large, when Mary appears to you guys, she doesn't say the same things she says to us. When Mary speaks to us she rarely uses the word "I" though she often uses the word "my". She never tells us what to pray but shows up already in prayer and intercession. Occasionally she'll be a typical Jewish mother and just show up to tell us that while she really likes the icon of her, she really thinks it would look better somewhere else on the monastery or cathedral grounds.
When God wishes to reveal something to us about the Theotokos herself, He never sends
her to us. He sends Gabriel.
Now, for something that really runs counter to Orthodoxy and saintliness... Our saints see visions, sure. But they never go seeking visions. They actively avoid visions whenever possible, going so far that when they enter the prayer of the Heart they banish mental imagery as much as possible. When a vision appears, the first thing an Orthodox saint does is doubt what he's seeing and makes the sign of the Cross over the apparition- and even then he doubts until the vision is absolutely explicit that it comes from God. But one thing our Tradition makes absolutely clear is that the person who seeks after visions will be lead into delusion.
Some of your saints do seek after visions. Your St Catherine prayed to see a vision of the Theotokos. That, for us makes the vision so entirely suspect that we might as well be discussing a pious psychological disorder - and being Orthodox we do mean "psychological" with all its possible definitions- there might be some things of value in there, but they'll be the things from a very devout woman's heart, and jumbled together with all forms of nonsense.
I try to avoid judging another culture or Christian Tradition too harshly for being different from my own. The biblical advice is to judge any such claims to visions and miracles by their fruits. I hold fast to this test.
The Orthodox have preserved the Apostolic Faith for centuries. You have persevered through long persecutions. You have nurtured generations of families in holiness. You have produced enduring works of art -- from icons to Dostoyevsky -- that have enriched mankind in faith and goodness.
So even if I do not understand such things as your devotion to icons, I can still say with confidence that Orthodox Tradition is
good. As in Godly Good. Orthodoxy is certainly attractive, and you deserve the converts that you earn.
Even the American Pentecostals.... in spite of being riddled with Protestant errors, having no knowledge of the Eucharist and the Theotokos, and a scandalous level of chaos in their 'worship' and discipline, Pentecostals are producing many holy saints and converts. Their missionary zeal is admirable. If it weren't for their own fierce dogma stating that the Apostolic Church is "unbiblical," they would make great Apostolic Christians.
All I can say is that God gives us what we need, in whatever tradition He finds us.
Perhaps the best example of this is Mary's Apparition at Guadalupe. Missionaries had labored for 40 years in the New World, with little to show for it. Then Mary appeared, and left us an icon that could be read by the native peoples. A Mexican friend tells me that God had also prepared the way with native legends about great signs concerning "flowers in winter." Within a few years, a whole continent was baptized.
