The Unseen Realm

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Post by tuttle »

On the old forum we had a fantastic thread started by JMG about the book The Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser. A few of us have read it and some other of his books dealing with the same subjects.

There was a little chatter about it on the facebook group, so I thought I'd create a thread to keep the discussion going here.
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Post by sweetandsour »

It's been a good while since reading Unseen, and I gave the book to my daughter. I need to give it a reread. I recently read Reversing Hermon, on recommendation from John Michael. I have lots of questions, mostly asking why all the secrecy and vagueness, and why not include the Enoch books in the canon, or else spell the message out in the gospels.
Im interested in seeing anyone else's thoughts on the Hermon book.
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Post by tuttle »

For me, I was already leaning towards a renewed "supernatural view of the bible" before I encountered Heiser's book, so it turned out a bit providential when JMG recommended it. Heiser's stuff served to really move a lot of what I was speculating onto firmer ground. It really is a great place to begin demolishing a lot of modern prejudices we bring to the text. It's basically provided a solid biblical foundation to think about the supernatural both in the Bible and the world today.

I think it's important--for people who haven't dived into all of this--to say that this stuff isn't original with Heiser. He isn't discovering or developing anything new. The worldview and interpretations he's presenting are pre-modern, and known to scholars. His book more or less just takes a heaping load of great scholarly work and puts it in one place. A lot of this information is out there, but hard to find, or easily ignored.

I think one of the reasons Heiser's book is important (and has become a sort of springboard for lots of folks) is that it seemed to have pushed through a barrier that others haven't been able to break through. And that's credibility. You can find some of this stuff wrapped up in some legitimately kooky teachers and that makes it easy to ignore. Heiser's work has forced us to look at this without the clown show surrounding it, and I think it's making an impact.

Since reading it, and discussing it with you guys on the last forum, I've encountered others who have had a similar "journey" as me which has led me to some other really interesting books and fields of discussion. For instance, I've come across some Christians who have become involved with the paranormal 'community' who, because of this worldview, have made significant in-roads with people who typically don't look to the church to have anything to say about stuff like this.

But outside of the weird (but cool!) stuff like that, it's really deepened my understanding of Scripture and has impacted lots of things from prayer to battling sin to worship, etc.

I want to hear what you guys think of it. Even if you've already said something about it on the last site.
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Post by sweetandsour »

tuttle wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 08:57 For me, I was already leaning towards a renewed "supernatural view of the bible" before I encountered Heiser's book, so it turned out a bit providential when JMG recommended it. Heiser's stuff served to really move a lot of what I was speculating onto firmer ground. It really is a great place to begin demolishing a lot of modern prejudices we bring to the text. It's basically provided a solid biblical foundation to think about the supernatural both in the Bible and the world today.

I think it's important--for people who haven't dived into all of this--to say that this stuff isn't original with Heiser. He isn't discovering or developing anything new. The worldview and interpretations he's presenting are pre-modern, and known to scholars. His book more or less just takes a heaping load of great scholarly work and puts it in one place. A lot of this information is out there, but hard to find, or easily ignored.

I think one of the reasons Heiser's book is important (and has become a sort of springboard for lots of folks) is that it seemed to have pushed through a barrier that others haven't been able to break through. And that's credibility. You can find some of this stuff wrapped up in some legitimately kooky teachers and that makes it easy to ignore. Heiser's work has forced us to look at this without the clown show surrounding it, and I think it's making an impact.

Since reading it, and discussing it with you guys on the last forum, I've encountered others who have had a similar "journey" as me which has led me to some other really interesting books and fields of discussion. For instance, I've come across some Christians who have become involved with the paranormal 'community' who, because of this worldview, have made significant in-roads with people who typically don't look to the church to have anything to say about stuff like this.

But outside of the weird (but cool!) stuff like that, it's really deepened my understanding of Scripture and has impacted lots of things from prayer to battling sin to worship, etc.

I want to hear what you guys think of it. Even if you've already said something about it on the last site.
What is a paranormal community? Eg, witches, casters of spells, ghost hunters?
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Post by Biff »

sweetandsour wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 00:29
tuttle wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 08:57 For me, I was already leaning towards a renewed "supernatural view of the bible" before I encountered Heiser's book, so it turned out a bit providential when JMG recommended it. Heiser's stuff served to really move a lot of what I was speculating onto firmer ground. It really is a great place to begin demolishing a lot of modern prejudices we bring to the text. It's basically provided a solid biblical foundation to think about the supernatural both in the Bible and the world today.

I think it's important--for people who haven't dived into all of this--to say that this stuff isn't original with Heiser. He isn't discovering or developing anything new. The worldview and interpretations he's presenting are pre-modern, and known to scholars. His book more or less just takes a heaping load of great scholarly work and puts it in one place. A lot of this information is out there, but hard to find, or easily ignored.

I think one of the reasons Heiser's book is important (and has become a sort of springboard for lots of folks) is that it seemed to have pushed through a barrier that others haven't been able to break through. And that's credibility. You can find some of this stuff wrapped up in some legitimately kooky teachers and that makes it easy to ignore. Heiser's work has forced us to look at this without the clown show surrounding it, and I think it's making an impact.

Since reading it, and discussing it with you guys on the last forum, I've encountered others who have had a similar "journey" as me which has led me to some other really interesting books and fields of discussion. For instance, I've come across some Christians who have become involved with the paranormal 'community' who, because of this worldview, have made significant in-roads with people who typically don't look to the church to have anything to say about stuff like this.

But outside of the weird (but cool!) stuff like that, it's really deepened my understanding of Scripture and has impacted lots of things from prayer to battling sin to worship, etc.

I want to hear what you guys think of it. Even if you've already said something about it on the last site.
What is a paranormal community? Eg, witches, casters of spells, ghost hunters?
I expect it's much like the UFO community. Enthusiasts, researchers, nerds, etc. No actual aliens, UFOs, or ghosts, etc.
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Post by jmg »

Being introduced to Heiser's work has done two main things for me: 1. It has made me more greatly aware of the depth of cultural intricacies of Scripture. 2. Has been a needed "WAKE UP!," to the severity and intensity of spiritual warfare.

The Western/modern world jumped on the pendulum and rode clear from the side of animism all the way over to an antagonistic style of atheism and self-reliance/self-worship.
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Post by joegoat »

This book is intriguing based on what y'all have said. I'm going to head over to eBay now. I believe the physical and spiritual realms are interwoven. Spiritual warfare exists all around us and I believe that the spiritual realm can manifest itself in the physical. Angelic and demonic presence in the physical realm is both scriptural and documented in modern times, yet Christianity seems to have made it taboo.
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Post by sweetandsour »

I'm still not sure I buy all of it. Especially the Reversing Hermon book, which is the most recent one I read. I plan to reread Unseen Realm when I get it back from my daughter.

BTW, if you're up early enough, this morning especially, look at the SE sky to the east of the moon and you'll see Saturn, Mars, Venus and Jupiter aligned. Last time this happened was 1000 years ago. Next time will be 2492. Venus is brightest, Jupiter next brightest.

Based on the Reversing Hermon book, if there are any surviving post-flood Nephalim descendents, then one or more of them should be able to discern any meanings from this astrological event.

And speaking of astronomy, one interesting item in the book is the calculation of Christ's birth date, which when translated to the Gregorian calendar, is Sept 11, 3 BC.
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Post by tuttle »

sweetandsour wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 00:29
tuttle wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 08:57 For me, I was already leaning towards a renewed "supernatural view of the bible" before I encountered Heiser's book, so it turned out a bit providential when JMG recommended it. Heiser's stuff served to really move a lot of what I was speculating onto firmer ground. It really is a great place to begin demolishing a lot of modern prejudices we bring to the text. It's basically provided a solid biblical foundation to think about the supernatural both in the Bible and the world today.

I think it's important--for people who haven't dived into all of this--to say that this stuff isn't original with Heiser. He isn't discovering or developing anything new. The worldview and interpretations he's presenting are pre-modern, and known to scholars. His book more or less just takes a heaping load of great scholarly work and puts it in one place. A lot of this information is out there, but hard to find, or easily ignored.

I think one of the reasons Heiser's book is important (and has become a sort of springboard for lots of folks) is that it seemed to have pushed through a barrier that others haven't been able to break through. And that's credibility. You can find some of this stuff wrapped up in some legitimately kooky teachers and that makes it easy to ignore. Heiser's work has forced us to look at this without the clown show surrounding it, and I think it's making an impact.

Since reading it, and discussing it with you guys on the last forum, I've encountered others who have had a similar "journey" as me which has led me to some other really interesting books and fields of discussion. For instance, I've come across some Christians who have become involved with the paranormal 'community' who, because of this worldview, have made significant in-roads with people who typically don't look to the church to have anything to say about stuff like this.

But outside of the weird (but cool!) stuff like that, it's really deepened my understanding of Scripture and has impacted lots of things from prayer to battling sin to worship, etc.

I want to hear what you guys think of it. Even if you've already said something about it on the last site.
What is a paranormal community? Eg, witches, casters of spells, ghost hunters?
Yeah, stuff like that. And the UFO stuff Biff mentioned.

I think it's important that the church has answers for people who have gotten themselves involved in those communities. Or at least enough to converse with understanding. The church should be THE place to go for any right understanding of the spiritual realm, and I'd venture to say more often than not, for anyone who has questions/experiences/etc, the modern church either doesn't have the categories/understanding to help, or worse, they act like most people and answer like materialists.

Fringe communities aside, I also think we're beginning to see the onset of the end of atheistic secularism. Secularism is collapsing in on itself and something will fill the void. People today aren't any different from people yesterday which means they are worshippers. When materialism crumbles, the spiritual realm will become more palatable (already is!) to society. I think we'll see some sort of merging of our technological advances with humanity, which would in some sense seem to be the height of materialism, but in actuality it will turn out to be the same thing the pagans have sought to do, use a technique to bend things to one's will, which has always been the goal of the sorcerer, and real magic requires power from beyond the physical realm.

In some ways I really do think all of the years of blood shed through things like State-sanctioned abortion, the discipling through godless catechizing, and the onslaught of de-humanization in its varied forms, has been essentially part of an enormous ritual slaking the thirst of the evil forces that have been conditioning society to more nakedly welcome and seek after the dark powers.

Lewis was right. Science and Magic, the Materialist and the Magician, are twins, born in the same seedy neighborhood, though one throve (science) and one withered (magic). And though I think the evidence can already be found today, I think we'll soon see more clearly the re-emergence of magic and the blending of the two once again. Things like Transhumanism and Witchcraft are already within sight of one another and will soon meet.

The Church needs to be prepared.
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Post by Del »

tuttle wrote: 25 Apr 2022, 09:47 Lewis was right. Science and Magic, the Materialist and the Magician, are twins, born in the same seedy neighborhood, though one throve (science) and one withered (magic). And though I think the evidence can already be found today, I think we'll soon see more clearly the re-emergence of magic and the blending of the two once again. Things like Transhumanism and Witchcraft are already within sight of one another and will soon meet.

The Church needs to be prepared.
We are seeing this already in the devotion given to Science and the faith placed in Experts -- by masses of people who should know better. And not just Fauci and the covid policy makers.

Last weekend, a guy set himself on fire in front of the Supreme Court as a sacrificial offering for Climate Change. He clearly saw himself as making a religious protest.

=============================
I've never heard of Heiser or The Unseen Realm, so I won't comment from this dearth of ignorance. A quick look at the Amazon reviews suggests that he is writing from the fundamentalist tradition. Sounds like he has also delved into Early Church Fathers.

I hope he read and interviewed some Jewish, Catholic and Orthodox saints and scholars on biblical insights and ancient wisdom regarding angels, demons and spiritual warfare. It can be summarized in a few chapters for modern Christians to digest easily.

I know there are some books by contemporary Catholic exorcists about the recent surge in demonic activity. Angels are active too. It's not all spooky stories, as the demons are practical and patient in culture and politics. I haven't read much of this myself, but I respect it. Those who pray on the sidewalks outside of abortion mills are warned to stay prepared. Demons guard their territory.
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